Re: [BNW] Re: bnw-digest.19990926

["Sidhain" <sidhain@earthlink.net>]

>
> I don't intend to staunchly defend the game, not in the least, I have my
> opinions, you have yours. As it happens, your are decidedly more vocal,
and
> for that matter, repetitive. You seem quite solidifyed in your
> disatisfaction in BNW, and I find myself wondering whay you're wasting
your
> time trashing it openly on a listserv designed to support the game. You
> provide your own standards for what would have been the right way to do
it,
> yet don't seem to understand the general "law" of RPGs. 1) NO one book is
> *ever* a complete RPG (Asside maybe from TFOS, but that's neither here nor
> there), sourcebooks have alway been a great way to introduce new character
> types. It worked for Deadlands, it worked for White Wolf, hell, Rifts has
> made a killing doing it. I like the fact that just about every new
Deadlands
> book I pick up as a few new templates. They flush out the locales with a
> touch of personality. 2) If you find yourself calling a main book
> 'incomplete', then you likely are unfirmiliar with the cardial fact for
> GMing - good GMs make even the most medeocre games playable. Almost every
> RPG on the market encourages creativity on behalf of their GMs an players.


Yes but beign creative for my own ends--not filling in details which they
planned on doing in the first place

And interestingly enough I can name a few dozen RPG's that have complete
rules in the Main book that never needs another product made for it.


> Want to try something new? Make up a rule/power. Many of the gang on this
> list have to do it every time they get behind a screen. This doesn't make
an
4)Your
> statement that they sell incomplete games is a half-truth.


Truth Two books published at the same time have the same number of packages
for the same rule system and setting both books cost 25.00+  Those packages
could have been put in the main book by shifting other things out of it,
thus they made a decision that cut the effectiveness of one book in favor of
sellign two books instead of just one.

True: Yes, they
> don't put everything in one book, as they do what you buy supplements (No
> honest game publisher would ever deny that) they do, after all, have bills
> to play, families to feed. False: They do it to force players into
spending
> money they don't have / shouldn't spend / don't need to spend / might
spend
> on another game.

Ten why aren't all the packages that were created at the time they were
doing the layouts for BNW in the main book?

BNW looks to follow suit. I don't buy a
> suppliment just for the templates, do you? And why would you? There is a
> *ton* of source material for setting, adventure ideas and hooks. If the
> argument is cost, I refer to my previous statement, no one makes you buy a
> gaming book.
>

No, if the game isn't template driven, but thats the problem BNW is template
driven so to have complete rules on running a True to the setting BNW game
one needs all the packages.


> You also mentioned you write you own settings, I find myself wondering if
> your true dissatisfaction lies in the fact that you had to pay for a
> setting.


Nope I have done it before and am quite happy with those settings....


If that might be the case your argument is foolish, RPGs are
> setting intensive, no setting / no RPG


Wrong Hero and Gurps both don't ahve settings but perform admirably well as
a generic set of rules for any setting.

. You should be used to that by now
> with all the game systems you've bought. If all a company ever sold was a
> game system it would be tough for conventions, campagins, even support
> formatslike this one to thrive.

See my comments on Providence...I will support a game company that give me
good product that gives me what I need to run the game.


My point has always been WHY SHOULD I ACCEPT this treatment as a gamer? Why
should I support a company that feels it has to elicit support by breaking
up information in such a way that they Expect me to buy another book?  The
way it comes out is they didn't feel they could sell their supplements
unless they added this information to them to make them more
saleable...otherwise why is it so important to advertise that those packages
are in the upcoming books?

I originally came to this list because I had heard good and bad things about
BNW and yet what I had heard and read had me excited to see a new setting
and a somewhat new system from a company that a produced a fairly good
product before--Deadlands for the record, when I was employed last I sold at
my place fo employment (a bookstore )6 copies of Deadlands by word of mouth,
no one around here had heard of it, and yet by reading it and thinking this
is a  good book, I managed to convey that into selling those copies of that
game. But I undortunatly don't like the "Wild West" as a setting even with
supernatral elements it just isn't what I like, but SUPERHEROES is another
matter. I came to here because I saw the addie posted and wanted to see the
discussion since I had placed my order for the game two weeks ago....
And was patiently waiting for it to come in before piping in and saying
anything, I got the book, openned it up and said looks good, I was genuinely
glad at that moment, until I started reading, and found that half the
packages aren't in the main book, hell 1/3 of the packages aren't in the man
book--true I can make them up, and would in an ordinary circumstance--but
this isn't one, because in the back of the book there is a page which
advertizes Ravaged Earth, and Defiance, and both also include packages--16
new ones, and I thought Cool, wonder what they are--then I counted the
packages in the book--Ten, only TEN? and I was angry at having paid
30.00+tax for something that only part of what was to be available--not
teribly angry about it but a little miffed, then, I noticed that Ravaged
Earth was released appearently AT THE SAME TIME as the main rulebook--which
is the point--if they had been 5 months between the books I'd not really be
as angry as I am, I would have let it slide...but the fact that it wasn't
looks to me like I was being deceived..the back of the rulebook says
everything you need to play in BNW but it isn't, I don't have teleporters
which exist in BNW, I don't have Defenders which exist in BNW....I don't
have the 1 other archetypes/power packages which exist in BNW.

and so I don't have "everything needed"


And  for the record I have to respond it's in my nature(and I started
writing before I got to where you asked me not too) and ultimately thats all
I have been doing is responding to people trying to understand why I
shouldn't feel upset over being cheated.


As I said, I like BNW, I just don't like having half of a whole which is
what I feel I was sold...

BTW guys on future printings take off the "Everything you need to play BNW
between these covers " or reword it --- it because it doesn't come with dice
and you need dice to play *L* :)



Up till now I have been trying to decide whether I really want to keep BNW,
or not, still I haven't truly decided, and if I truly felt it was ENTIRELY
intentional to take as much money as they could from me, Id have already
left in disgust--I don't think PEG was doing that--but it certainly FEELS
like it.