Re: [WW] Weird Wars Problems - Savage Worlds - D20 Modern

[Joey Fanning <wraith530@comcast.net>]

There is one big reason they won't go into gun operation
specifics--liability.  PEG can produce all they want on military hstory and
strategy, but they tell you how to aim it, pull the trigger, and such and
they're gonna get sued by the parents of the first roleplayer that gets
hisself shot.  I seriously doubuy, however, a news report on the book
leading to an increase in flanking maneuvers by gang members.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven "Conan" Trustrum" <trustrum@rogers.com>
To: <weirdwars@gamerz.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [WW] Weird Wars Problems - Savage Worlds - D20 Modern


> At 07:32 PM 10/8/02 -0400, Cpt. Canuck you wrote:
> >Steven \"Conan\" Trustrum wrote:
> >So you've told me that I've been living under a rock.  You are very
> >adamant that this shouldn't be included.  That's fine, I think it
> >should.  Non of your arguments hold water IMO.  The fact is though, that
> >it doesn't matter at this point.
>
> Other than the fact that I'm currently writing a book that makes heavy use
> of flintlock firearms and knowing that were I to suggest what you want
with
> regards to that material, a situation that is quite analogous to your
> opinion, my publisher would say "why would I want to do that when I could
> better spend the space on rpg material, not giving the reader a technical
> lesson? Just write a two sentence blurb on the primitive nature of
> flintlocks because I'm sure the people interested in this already know
> enough about them from watching movies, not to mention from the game stats
> provided, to make anything more unnecessary. Steve, people wanting to
learn
> more have access to countless resources, we aren't here to give them that
> education."
>
> Just like I don't know everything there is to know about lasers, phasers,
> and quantum mechanics, I can still pick up a Star Wars rpg book and play
> the game. With all of the Star Wars tech manuals and the like that are
> available on the market, I'd be quite annoyed if I were to then buy an rpg
> book that wasted space with the same material. In fact, one of my pet
> peeves are the diagrams of the X-Wing and Millenium Falcon in the 1e Star
> Wars sourcebook (especially seeing as how they used up that space and they
> didn't even bother to make the diagrams complete). I don't need to know
the
> temperature or wattage that a laser pistol fires at, or the frequency of
> light that the beam exists at, in order to have my character use it in the
> game.
>
> >Hmmmm....  If the WW rulebook was just mechanics, it'd have been quite
> >small.  Perhaps by being that small they might think it wouldn't sell as
> >well.
>
> What's there is building the story, plot, and atmosphere of the game. The
> Weird War 2 main book is not meant to replace a history lesson or give you
> all the information that you'll ever need to know about WWII. I seriously
> doubt you could walk into a history class and use it as a basis for your
> participation in the class just like I seriously doubt that the writers at
> Pinnacle assumed that a bushman walking out of the wilds could pick up
> their main book, read it, and suddenly say "hey, I know all that I'll ever
> need to in order to run a WWII-based game!" A certain degree of
> foreknowledge and interest was assumed, I'm quite sure.
>
> >Fluff is nothing new to RPG products, but what I would have liked to see
> >wasn't fluff historical info, but actual aids to RPing and the mechanics
> >of the game, as well as giving gun newbies a little info.
>
>  From an author's and publisher's perspective, what you want isn't fluff,
> it's downright unnecessary because it falls into the domain of common
> knowledge. The fact that you personally (addmitedly) don't know squat
about
> firearms is irrelevant. Go read a book on the subject and let the rpg
> writers write rpg material, not technical manuals. A publishing company
> would annoy far more people by including such material than it would
please
> the small niche of the market that has somehow managed to avoid the mass
> media culture that has bombarded them with gunplay for over half a century
> and therefor means that they somehow want an education on the matter from
> an rpg sourcebook. And Pinnacle did give you a "little info" on the
> firearms included in their game, all of which can be found on pages 59
> through to 66 of the main book. What more do you want? Diagrams saying
> "step one, insert bullet, step 2, chamber round, step 3, prop butt against
> shoulder, etc."?
>
> >What about the pages and pages of historical information?  Hey, I'm not
> >complaining about the fluff, but your argument was that you only wanted
> >mechanics, and that's why you don't want gun info.  Yet you defend the
> >fluff.
>
> No it wasn't. Please don't put words into my mouth. My point was that you
> only really need mechanics for the specific instance you'd proposed, that
> being WWII era weapons. I didn't say anything to the effect of "hey, give
> me the rules for the game but don't provide me with a simple time line or
> summary of the war's progress so that I can then take that encapsulation
> and develop a plot for my campaign." Then again, I don't want an entire
> step-by-step history lesson, either. What you're proposing leads to "hey,
I
> don't know anything about socks but it's listed in the equipment section.
> Maybe Pinnacle should include diagrams on darning techniques. And now that
> I think about it, how did they the Nazi SS put on their uniforms? I hope
> Pinnacle includes an entire page on Nazi uniforms in their main book to
> sate my curiosity! I mean, come on, can they really expect that we all
know
> about socks and uniforms? Would one page on this stuff really kill them?"
>
> >Too be honest I haven't seen any relavence in my sessions to the
> >Generals.  Perhaps much later on, but certainly not anytime soon.  Hey,
> >that info is easy to acquire from movies like PATTON, and books, and
> >hey, why should the company do any research, it's the players
> >responsibility anyhow isn't it?
>
> No, it's the Warmaster's responsibility, not the players'. And if
someone's
> watched Patton and read books on the other generals and still don't know
> enough about them to know how to use them in an rpg, well, quite frankly
> the historical or technical information that Pinnacle or any other
> publishing house could possibly include in their rpg sourcebooks is the
> least of their worries.
>
> >If you'd never used a computer before, knowing the basics would be a
> >real asset in any session.  Otherwise its just a magic box that you
> >don't even know how to turn on.  See Hank Hill (King Of The Hill)
> >pointing the mouse at the computer and pressing the mouse button over
> >and over to turn it on.  You don't need endless details, and you
> >certainly could fill a whole book the size of the rulebook with all gun
> >info, just like you don't need all the info about computers, but the
> >basics are very useful.
>
> Why is it an asset? The fact that the character has a computer skill would
> indicate that the character possesses knowledge that the player might not
> himself possess. When using a computer, does your GM say "you see three
> buttons on the front, which do you press? There is a keyboard before you,
> what keys do you hit to type in your password? Where on the computer do
you
> want to insert the disk that you acquired earlier?" No, he says "you've
> turned on the computer and entered your password. You then access the disk
> you stole and load up the files."
>
> If I needed to have a detailed understanding of every skill that appeared
> in a book, I wouldn't be able to play any sci-fi games because I've never
> been in space and don't know squat about spaceships, I wouldn't be able to
> create a character with any mechanics skills because I know squat about
> engines (and how dare the author of that GURPS vehicles book I bought not
> think to include an essay on the workings on the internal combustion
> engine!!!), and so on and so forth.
>
> It is called ROLE-playing, not PLEASE EXPLAIN EVERYTHING I DON'T
PERSONALLY
> ALREADY KNOW TO ME BECAUSE I CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO DO A LITTLE RESEARCH
> BEFOREHAND ON MY OWN playing.
>
> > > >As well, considering the game is heavily based on gun play, more info
on
> > > >those guns wouldn't be terrible.
> > >
> > > That's what a library is for. A role-playing company is about making
> > > role-playing games, not about providing resources and history or
technical
> > > lessons for the material covered in those same games. It goes without
> >
> >The magic-user casts spells, we don't need to know how.
>
> Exactly, we don't, which is why in the PHB you see things like how it is
> believed that sorcerers have dragons' blood in them, but nobody knows for
> sure. Just how much fun do you think would be detracted from the
creativity
> of an rpg if the PHB had even just a few pages set aside to explain the
> physics of magic in their game mechanics? Yawn. It's called suspension of
> disbelief and using your imagination. I rpg to have fun, not to be bogged
> down in minutia.
>
> >I'm sure the Mechwarrior RPG would be much better without all that
> >technical tripe.
>
> That's a different matter. You're talking about an rpg based on a
> once-popular tech-heavy wargame where the fan-base had already expressed
an
> interest in the fantastical technology. Also keeping in mind that
> Mechwarrior is 100% fantasy so there are absolutely no other resources  to
> look at; Mechwarrior is not based on real events or real equipment so you
> can't just walk into a library or go online and pull up the information
> from thousands of sites and books.
>
> >Perhaps it just depends on your realism in your game too.  Heck, I'm
> >sure many don't bother making their players reload, or even count ammo.
>
> But what does this have to do with what you want to see in a book? You
> don't have to know squat about guns to be able to read the ammunition in
> the gun charts and understand that if you start with 30 bullets, fire 3,
> you now have 27 bullets.
>
> >Games are never passing fancies in this world.  No one would ever go,
> >"Hey that sounds neat, let's give it a try?"
>
> Sure they would, but you don't tailor a product for a "passing fancy" in a
> niche market like the rpg industry if you hope to earn any money. Sure,
you
> may hope to start a trend but you certainly don't purposely target a
> "passing fancy". You hope that you're consumers will say "hey that sound
> neat, let's give it a try" and find it cool enough on its own merits to
> make a lasting impression. You don't, however, try to pander to every
> demographic and say "hmmm, I'm writing a fantasy game where horses are the
> principal conveyance, but I know that some people aren't going to know
> anything about horses. I'd better include a page or two on the proper use
> of a saddle and tack, not to mention the breeding histories of the various
> breeds of horse." Again, the author necessarily has to assume that someone
> who is willing to stick with their product will either already know enough
> about the material (especially if dealing with historical facts) or will
> think it cool enough to learn more on their own, thereby enhancing their
> gaming experience. You don't try to anticipate peoples' ignorance and turn
> your rpg sourcebook into a progression of lessons.
>
> >It's easy to learn history, information about the Generals, the
> >resistance, and the landscape of Europe in WW2, but actual gun usage is
> >not as easy.  Regardless, I see people who'd love to see more maps of
> >the war torn areas.  Screw them eh...  Let's write an adventure, but
> >we'll leave out all the why's and any information not mechanics
> >related.  You have the bad guy, it's not important why he's the bad
>
> Gun material difficult to find? Go to google and type "proper gun use" and
> watch what happens. Or why not mail the NRA? I'm sure they'd send you
> something for free. Yes, it's that easy. As for the maps, again, you're
> comparing apples and oranges. Maps are directly relevant to how a
Warmaster
> conducts a game, which is why maps in gaming have been a staple for as
long
> as the rpg has been around. Similarly, why a villain is a villain isn't
> even remotely related to knowing how a gun works and including material on
> such. You're presenting facetious points that have no relation to each the
> nature of your original point.
>
>
> Steven "Conan" Trustrum
>    Email: steven@trustrum.com
>    Homepage: http://www.trustrum.com
> "The only real people are the people that never existed"     -- Oscar
Wilde
>
>
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