Re: [WW] Weird Wars Problems - Savage Worlds - D20 Modern

["Steven \"Conan\" Trustrum" <trustrum@rogers.com>]

At 07:32 PM 10/8/02 -0400, Cpt. Canuck you wrote:
>Steven \"Conan\" Trustrum wrote:
>So you've told me that I've been living under a rock.  You are very
>adamant that this shouldn't be included.  That's fine, I think it
>should.  Non of your arguments hold water IMO.  The fact is though, that
>it doesn't matter at this point.

Other than the fact that I'm currently writing a book that makes heavy use 
of flintlock firearms and knowing that were I to suggest what you want with 
regards to that material, a situation that is quite analogous to your 
opinion, my publisher would say "why would I want to do that when I could 
better spend the space on rpg material, not giving the reader a technical 
lesson? Just write a two sentence blurb on the primitive nature of 
flintlocks because I'm sure the people interested in this already know 
enough about them from watching movies, not to mention from the game stats 
provided, to make anything more unnecessary. Steve, people wanting to learn 
more have access to countless resources, we aren't here to give them that 
education."

Just like I don't know everything there is to know about lasers, phasers, 
and quantum mechanics, I can still pick up a Star Wars rpg book and play 
the game. With all of the Star Wars tech manuals and the like that are 
available on the market, I'd be quite annoyed if I were to then buy an rpg 
book that wasted space with the same material. In fact, one of my pet 
peeves are the diagrams of the X-Wing and Millenium Falcon in the 1e Star 
Wars sourcebook (especially seeing as how they used up that space and they 
didn't even bother to make the diagrams complete). I don't need to know the 
temperature or wattage that a laser pistol fires at, or the frequency of 
light that the beam exists at, in order to have my character use it in the 
game.

>Hmmmm....  If the WW rulebook was just mechanics, it'd have been quite
>small.  Perhaps by being that small they might think it wouldn't sell as
>well.

What's there is building the story, plot, and atmosphere of the game. The 
Weird War 2 main book is not meant to replace a history lesson or give you 
all the information that you'll ever need to know about WWII. I seriously 
doubt you could walk into a history class and use it as a basis for your 
participation in the class just like I seriously doubt that the writers at 
Pinnacle assumed that a bushman walking out of the wilds could pick up 
their main book, read it, and suddenly say "hey, I know all that I'll ever 
need to in order to run a WWII-based game!" A certain degree of 
foreknowledge and interest was assumed, I'm quite sure.

>Fluff is nothing new to RPG products, but what I would have liked to see
>wasn't fluff historical info, but actual aids to RPing and the mechanics
>of the game, as well as giving gun newbies a little info.

 From an author's and publisher's perspective, what you want isn't fluff, 
it's downright unnecessary because it falls into the domain of common 
knowledge. The fact that you personally (addmitedly) don't know squat about 
firearms is irrelevant. Go read a book on the subject and let the rpg 
writers write rpg material, not technical manuals. A publishing company 
would annoy far more people by including such material than it would please 
the small niche of the market that has somehow managed to avoid the mass 
media culture that has bombarded them with gunplay for over half a century 
and therefor means that they somehow want an education on the matter from 
an rpg sourcebook. And Pinnacle did give you a "little info" on the 
firearms included in their game, all of which can be found on pages 59 
through to 66 of the main book. What more do you want? Diagrams saying 
"step one, insert bullet, step 2, chamber round, step 3, prop butt against 
shoulder, etc."?

>What about the pages and pages of historical information?  Hey, I'm not
>complaining about the fluff, but your argument was that you only wanted
>mechanics, and that's why you don't want gun info.  Yet you defend the
>fluff.

No it wasn't. Please don't put words into my mouth. My point was that you 
only really need mechanics for the specific instance you'd proposed, that 
being WWII era weapons. I didn't say anything to the effect of "hey, give 
me the rules for the game but don't provide me with a simple time line or 
summary of the war's progress so that I can then take that encapsulation 
and develop a plot for my campaign." Then again, I don't want an entire 
step-by-step history lesson, either. What you're proposing leads to "hey, I 
don't know anything about socks but it's listed in the equipment section. 
Maybe Pinnacle should include diagrams on darning techniques. And now that 
I think about it, how did they the Nazi SS put on their uniforms? I hope 
Pinnacle includes an entire page on Nazi uniforms in their main book to 
sate my curiosity! I mean, come on, can they really expect that we all know 
about socks and uniforms? Would one page on this stuff really kill them?"

>Too be honest I haven't seen any relavence in my sessions to the
>Generals.  Perhaps much later on, but certainly not anytime soon.  Hey,
>that info is easy to acquire from movies like PATTON, and books, and
>hey, why should the company do any research, it's the players
>responsibility anyhow isn't it?

No, it's the Warmaster's responsibility, not the players'. And if someone's 
watched Patton and read books on the other generals and still don't know 
enough about them to know how to use them in an rpg, well, quite frankly 
the historical or technical information that Pinnacle or any other 
publishing house could possibly include in their rpg sourcebooks is the 
least of their worries.

>If you'd never used a computer before, knowing the basics would be a
>real asset in any session.  Otherwise its just a magic box that you
>don't even know how to turn on.  See Hank Hill (King Of The Hill)
>pointing the mouse at the computer and pressing the mouse button over
>and over to turn it on.  You don't need endless details, and you
>certainly could fill a whole book the size of the rulebook with all gun
>info, just like you don't need all the info about computers, but the
>basics are very useful.

Why is it an asset? The fact that the character has a computer skill would 
indicate that the character possesses knowledge that the player might not 
himself possess. When using a computer, does your GM say "you see three 
buttons on the front, which do you press? There is a keyboard before you, 
what keys do you hit to type in your password? Where on the computer do you 
want to insert the disk that you acquired earlier?" No, he says "you've 
turned on the computer and entered your password. You then access the disk 
you stole and load up the files."

If I needed to have a detailed understanding of every skill that appeared 
in a book, I wouldn't be able to play any sci-fi games because I've never 
been in space and don't know squat about spaceships, I wouldn't be able to 
create a character with any mechanics skills because I know squat about 
engines (and how dare the author of that GURPS vehicles book I bought not 
think to include an essay on the workings on the internal combustion 
engine!!!), and so on and so forth.

It is called ROLE-playing, not PLEASE EXPLAIN EVERYTHING I DON'T PERSONALLY 
ALREADY KNOW TO ME BECAUSE I CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO DO A LITTLE RESEARCH 
BEFOREHAND ON MY OWN playing.

> > >As well, considering the game is heavily based on gun play, more info on
> > >those guns wouldn't be terrible.
> >
> > That's what a library is for. A role-playing company is about making
> > role-playing games, not about providing resources and history or technical
> > lessons for the material covered in those same games. It goes without
>
>The magic-user casts spells, we don't need to know how.

Exactly, we don't, which is why in the PHB you see things like how it is 
believed that sorcerers have dragons' blood in them, but nobody knows for 
sure. Just how much fun do you think would be detracted from the creativity 
of an rpg if the PHB had even just a few pages set aside to explain the 
physics of magic in their game mechanics? Yawn. It's called suspension of 
disbelief and using your imagination. I rpg to have fun, not to be bogged 
down in minutia.

>I'm sure the Mechwarrior RPG would be much better without all that
>technical tripe.

That's a different matter. You're talking about an rpg based on a 
once-popular tech-heavy wargame where the fan-base had already expressed an 
interest in the fantastical technology. Also keeping in mind that 
Mechwarrior is 100% fantasy so there are absolutely no other resources  to 
look at; Mechwarrior is not based on real events or real equipment so you 
can't just walk into a library or go online and pull up the information 
from thousands of sites and books.

>Perhaps it just depends on your realism in your game too.  Heck, I'm
>sure many don't bother making their players reload, or even count ammo.

But what does this have to do with what you want to see in a book? You 
don't have to know squat about guns to be able to read the ammunition in 
the gun charts and understand that if you start with 30 bullets, fire 3, 
you now have 27 bullets.

>Games are never passing fancies in this world.  No one would ever go,
>"Hey that sounds neat, let's give it a try?"

Sure they would, but you don't tailor a product for a "passing fancy" in a 
niche market like the rpg industry if you hope to earn any money. Sure, you 
may hope to start a trend but you certainly don't purposely target a 
"passing fancy". You hope that you're consumers will say "hey that sound 
neat, let's give it a try" and find it cool enough on its own merits to 
make a lasting impression. You don't, however, try to pander to every 
demographic and say "hmmm, I'm writing a fantasy game where horses are the 
principal conveyance, but I know that some people aren't going to know 
anything about horses. I'd better include a page or two on the proper use 
of a saddle and tack, not to mention the breeding histories of the various 
breeds of horse." Again, the author necessarily has to assume that someone 
who is willing to stick with their product will either already know enough 
about the material (especially if dealing with historical facts) or will 
think it cool enough to learn more on their own, thereby enhancing their 
gaming experience. You don't try to anticipate peoples' ignorance and turn 
your rpg sourcebook into a progression of lessons.

>It's easy to learn history, information about the Generals, the
>resistance, and the landscape of Europe in WW2, but actual gun usage is
>not as easy.  Regardless, I see people who'd love to see more maps of
>the war torn areas.  Screw them eh...  Let's write an adventure, but
>we'll leave out all the why's and any information not mechanics
>related.  You have the bad guy, it's not important why he's the bad

Gun material difficult to find? Go to google and type "proper gun use" and 
watch what happens. Or why not mail the NRA? I'm sure they'd send you 
something for free. Yes, it's that easy. As for the maps, again, you're 
comparing apples and oranges. Maps are directly relevant to how a Warmaster 
conducts a game, which is why maps in gaming have been a staple for as long 
as the rpg has been around. Similarly, why a villain is a villain isn't 
even remotely related to knowing how a gun works and including material on 
such. You're presenting facetious points that have no relation to each the 
nature of your original point.


Steven "Conan" Trustrum
   Email: steven@trustrum.com
   Homepage: http://www.trustrum.com
"The only real people are the people that never existed"     -- Oscar Wilde