Re: [HoE] Templar Gift - Impressions?

["Steve Crow" <crow_steve@hotmail.com>]

Ooh, lots of directions to go here...

>I really don't have time to get into serious discussion on this at the 
>moment, but the HTH rules do depict what Shane and company wanted--a series 
>of thrusts/parries/etc. that don't always connect. Rather than go into a 
>complicated system of an attack and defense roll for each one, the HTH 
>system is designed (and allows) a fighter with a high skill level to gain 
>not only in likelihood of striking with a blow, but also in preventing one 
>as well.
>
>Without another roll.
>

*nods* Sure.  The system itself is fine and representative without being too 
complicated (outside of the inherent multi-roll for a single-combat action 
nature of Deadlands in general :( ).  The problem is that...

> >Guns have things like multiple attacks;
>
>Plain and simple, guns are better than knives. That's all there is to it. I 
>don't think anyone is arguing that point. ;-)
>

Or swords, or chainsaws, or battle axes, or...  It would probably be a 
debate for another thread (I don't want to redesign the combat system!), but 
is it really desireable to have a fairly common aspect of a RPG (combat) be 
divided into two categories, and have one so much inferior to another?  
Don't know if it's "realistic."  Personally, in HTH combat, my money would 
probably be on the guy with the sword.

Clearly the gun is better than the knife over a wide range of combat 
situations (10'...50'...100'...etc.).  However, even in HTH, a non-HTH 
weapon is better!  That's the peculiarity, IMO.  I've seen enough RPGs that 
go with that assumption of HTH being best for HTH that it strikes me as hard 
to believe that common sense _always_ dictates a gun is superior to a 
knife/sword in all instances.  Some designers disagree, apparently.  Which 
wouldn't matter except that it seems to occasionally cause problems for us.

> >>To expand upon a point I noted in my response to Darrin, the Gift has 
>kind
>of evolved in response to the fact that Templars (and HTH fighters in
>general) are basically screwed against armored opponents.  My Templar found
>this a source of endless frustration.<<
>
>Not to be flip, but if it's that big a deal, maybe he should get a gun. :-)
>
>Not every attack is going to be universally effective. My gunslinger 
>carries a pair of Tokarevs. Those do 3d6 damage; unless I'm lucky enough to 
>scrounge a few AP rounds, they penetrate no more armor than a Templar's 
>sword. And they run out of bullets.
>

Sure, but if we're talking straight combat in that case the gunslinger and 
the Templar are _equally_ useless.  Which means probably the threat and the 
nature in which it must be overcome is poorly designed.  I can have the 
gunslinger find some AP rounds to overcome the threat.  I can limit the # of 
AP rounds he finds.  But there don't seem to _be_ AP HTH weapons to have my 
Templar find. And once he has onet, it doesn't go away or get used up.  I 
could arbitrarily destroy it after it's served its usefulness, but this is 
ongoing - how many times can you arbitrarily pull that off?

And this is a curious omission from the pre-war-type Equipment lists.  
Presumably such things did exist, since you can build them using Junker tech 
(which can only mostly build stuff that was technically feasible in 2081, 
right?).  Might be something to include in a future book (Wasted Warriors? - 
quick, put it in there if it ain't already!)  Or did 2081 soldiers just not 
find a use for AP HTH weaponry...?

And...as you noted above, the knife is universally _uneffective_ compared to 
a gun.  From a rules point of view (and the problem to some degree exists in 
Deadlands as well, where ammo isn't as rare a commodity so ammo-rarity 
doesn't seem to be the issue), why would anyone (except perhaps the most 
heavily muscled of individuals, and even then the strength is useless if the 
weapon base damage can't get through the armor) _ever_ take a HTH attack, or 
skills, or anything related to the knife/sword/whatever HTH?

One suggestion I would make for a future (hopefully) edition of HoE would be 
to make the rules a bit broader as far as allowing folks to do damage based 
on their strength even if the weapon damage is reduced down to 0 by armor.  
Even if you've got armor 4, I'd kinda think being hit in the head with a 2d8 
sword would do _something_.  Maybe expand the "larger size/non-lethal 
damage" thing.  Anybody here could do that, but it would be nice to see it 
published...

> >> The player envisions his Templar
>character (not unreasonably) as primarily a swordfighter.  There are 
>already
>enough things (like almost the entire Road Warrior book, unless your
>opponents are obliging enough to try boarding ;) ) that make HTH fighting
>redundant.<<
>
>Not unreasonable at all, but there are disadvantages to that. It all comes 
>down to bringing a knife to a gunfight. If he's going up against opponents 
>that are constantly packing heat or too armored for his sword to penetrate, 
>a change of tactics might be in order.
>

Sure.  But in the example I cited below with the Wormlings, even when he 
brings a knife to a knife-fight, his opponents (when they have an option) 
realize that using ranged attacks _in_ knife fighting is better.  Apparently 
you shouldn't bring a knife to a knifefight either!  :)

If a knife isn't good in a gunfight (understandable), _and_ it isn't the 
best weapon in a knife fight (unless your opponent is willing to stick with 
an inferior knife himself), ummm...what's the point of anyone using 
knives/swords/whatever?

>OTOH, if as a player, he's truly unhappy with the game as a result, I'd 
>suggest (as a player) he either consider a different character type or (as 
>a Marshal) perhaps structuring adventures more suited to the character.
>

Or develop a Templar gift that gives him AP capabilities for his HTH 
weapons...?  :)  He's been playing for a while and the character is 
well-developed - dropping the character isn't really an option.  The 
structuring is a bit...tricky, since the rest of the group _has_ realized 
the advantages of gun over knife that you have noted.

*shrug* Why he doesn't want to use a gun for his character you'd have to 
talk to him.  I've noted it to him myself.  But anyhoo...if swordfighting is 
inferior as noted in "gun vs. knife" in most cases, and everything devolves 
(or evolves?) into a gunfight when possible, there seems little reason for 
the Templars' primary fighting tactic.  Why the focus on swords when 
swordfighting...well, um, sucks?

> >>It is still hard to penetrate high armor levels, but it gives the
>Templar/swordfighter a fighting chance against low-end stuff in the armor
>range (say, 4-7).<<
>
>I'm not clear--are you saying an opponent in the AV 4-7 range is _low_ or 
>_high_? If it's low for your campaign, then give the guy the souped up 
>version you spoke of earlier, for pete's sake! <g>
>

_If_ they encounter armored opponents, they are typically about an average 
of 4-7.  I don't throw a lot of armored human-type goons at them, which is 
where you tend to see the low-end armor (Kevlar and Infantry Suits).  Quite 
frankly, it just makes for more in-combat calculations ("Did I hit the head? 
  The arm?  Did I hit the 50% of the leg that the Duster covers? Okay, you 
know the dice you normally roll for damage - well, roll something different! 
  How different?  Well, let's see..."), and even an extra die roll if 
Dusters are involved for leg hits.  Uggh.  More die rolls = bad.  :(

>OTOH, if that's the high end, then the power (with a bonus equal to level) 
>is about right. Remember though, a sword penetrates AV 3 as well as a 
>pistol round and does better damage once it does.
>

Yes, unfortunately the "average" armor tends to be 4-7 when they encounter 
armored opponents (and going mostly with Pinnacle's creatures that I use).  
At which point the sword becomes totally useless (with no real inherent AP 
option, see above), and a pistol round with an AP of 1 or 2 does _some_ 
damage.

>The reason I suggest the bonus per level to the roll is I agree with 
>you--it's unlikely he'll ever get more than 1 or 2 raises with any 
>frequency. By giving a bonus to the roll equal to the level, he gets 
>something for increasing it.
>
>How likely is it that he'd ever get 5 raises necessary to take advantage of 
>the power's level 5 under the old system? It could happen, but not enough 
>to be worth the point cost.
>

You haven't seen my group roll...  :)  I wouldn't say five raises is 
"average," but 2-3 is pretty common.  And yes, that includes the opponents' 
HTH defensive skill/bonus (when they bother to use it).  And without 
spending chips.

> >> Other folks can buy/make/obtain AP rounds for their guns
>(not easily, but this is a setting limitation, not a rules limitation), use
>Slow Burn, mental-type Syker effects, Neutron Blast, EMP, etc.<<
>
>Conversely, encountering highly armored opponents is also a setting, not 
>rules, limitation. The group _doesn't_ have to encounter them. AP bullets 
>are less effective against soft targets; syker and doomsayer powers are 
>generally one use, require an Aptitude roll, and use Strain. I advise 
>restraint with Templar gifts because they have _none_ of these drawbacks.
>

An odd statement.  It's true Syker and Doomsayer stuff requires a single 
action (typically), but requiring an Aptitude roll is hardly a hardship.  
Geez, even most of the archetypes in the books max out the appropriate 
stat/skill, and the TNs are relatively low enough (mostly 5s in non-opposed 
cases) that your chance of failure is pretty minimal.

I'm not sure what you mean by one-shot.  The most expensive powers come to 
about 5 Strain, so a competent Doomsayer/Syker should have at least 2 shots. 
  And that's assuming you need the most expensive power.  Stuff like MIRV 
and Chain Brain are scary enough.  :)

But anyway...I assume you mean restraint with _new_ Templar Gifts - there's 
not much one can do about printed ones other than to outright ban them 
without some significant designing effort.  Actually, it strikes me that 
Pinnacle might have shown some restraint with a few of those published 
ones...  ;)

Highly-armored, yes.  But I'm not really talking the Armageddon Tank or 
whatever from MMM.  These days (the campaign has been going on for a while) 
I tend to find that for solo or near-solo opponents (as opposed to, say, a 
horde of Wormlings, Trogs, or Black Hats), armor 4 or so is necessary to 
keep the thing alive long enough to get in a blow.

*****

Also, we raised that question before, but AP effects other then ammo are 
_not_ less effective against soft targets, right?  Presumably any pre-war AP 
Swords or Junker-built material (or grenades, or shells or whatever) I have 
the party scrounge would not suffer from the "soft target" modifier, 
correct...?  We've never been quite clear on that.

*****

Anyhoo...let's say for the sake of argument that in this particular 
campaign, AV 4-6 or so is required for a single-opponent "challenge."   Your 
mileage, of course, may vary.  :)

> >>Against high-end armor stuff I don't want _anybody_ to have an easy time 
>of
>it :) , so this is consistent with Cutting Edge not being a great Gift
>against high-armored opponents.<<
>
>I agree, with only one or two tweaks.
>
> >>(snipped comments on Templar's effectiveness defensively)<<
>
>Wow--with a turtle that potent, I'd almost not give him _anything_ 
>offensive. :-)
>

Well see my comment on the whole "restraint" thing of the published material 
above.  Was it really Pinnacle's intent to let Templars become these kind of 
turtles?  Guardian Angel (even without the Greater Reward) has been a thorn 
in my side for quite some time... :(

*****

The best case I can see here with your statements is simply not to give it 
to him because Templar stuff tends to be defensive (and passive, kind of).  
Cutting Edge is not a defensive Gift.  Ipso facto, QED, and all that.  
Unfortunately, that is kinda contradicted by the Deadeye Gift (or whatever 
it is called).

> >>Mileage in your campaign may vary.  Don't know if you've read my review 
>of
>Killer Clown over on Azrael, John (or seen my occasional comments here).
>However, at the very least, my group seems to be rather...widely divergent
>from yours as far as tactics and such.<<
>
>No--what's the URL?
>

http:///www.azraelonline.com

*sigh* I was a bit harsher on it than I should have been.  Sort of.  I 
almost always am (you should read my DC Heroes review there!).  Sum it up, I 
liked the novella (although why only "normal" gunslingers?), liked the 
atmospheric build-up.

I thought the major enemies had the same problems vis a vis what we've been 
talking about in this thread concerning the Templar.  Almost all HTH, no 
ranged combat capability.  Since, as you note, bringing a knife to a 
gunfight is not effective in HoE, and everything tends to become a gunfight, 
da Clowns are kinda outclassed because that's almost _exactly_ what they do. 
  KC kinda relies on narrative convenience for the KCs' opponents to get 
into HTH.  Which can be kinda annoying to players, ("We put down trigger 
lines, look around a lot, am paranoid, and wait for a HTH ambush."  "The 
clowns get to you.  You're in HTH."  "Again?!?  That's the fourth time!"  
"But what else can I do - HTH is all that they do!") But if you don't do 
that (or if your group isn't as small as the three PC types in the novella), 
the PCs can typically keep their opponents at bay via ranged combat (and the 
"gun vs. knife" advantages therein from above).

It also struck me as a little too dependent on the Fear Level messing up the 
group.  My players figured out early on that good Spirits and relatively 
high Guts was necessary.  And see above on my comments about their 
propensity for high non-chip rolling...  ;)

Oh, and...


POSSIBLE SPOILER








One good EMP blast takes out the major nemesis at the end.  Yeah, I can give 
him EMP shielding, but that really should have been written into the 
adventure.  Has anyone ever had a Doomsayer who hasn't held back those last 
five points, for a last-ditch Nuke if not a mega-blast EMP?

> >>Much appreciated.  Thanks.<<
>
>Again, anytime! :-)
>
>John


---

Steve Crow

"Worm Can Opener Extraordinare"

Check out my website at:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/

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