Re: [HoE] Fortitude Ruling Response (long)[John]

[Matthew Steflik <grifflik@stny.rr.com>]

Hey Gang,

I've been forwarding your responses to my player's (Jesse VanValkenburg)
"rant" on our group's misinterpretation on Fortitude since he's not on
the list (perhaps he should be...have to send him the info), and he sent
back the following replies.  I should state for the record that Jesse
also Marshals HoE and plays in my campaign (and he's not currently a
Syker).  Here you go. From here on out, its Jesse's words - not mine:

B.D. Flory wrote:

> First, there is such a thing as erratta.  The edge, as printed, may be
> different than the edge as intended.  Second, Hopler's the brand manager.
> He can change/twist/bend/etc. any rule he wants.  Third, IYGDWYW.
>
> Oh yeah, and four, don't argue with the brand manager- he'll sic Stone on
> you. ;)
>
B.D. -
    Matt is correct. My point was not that it is not OK to change
something or to clarify it. That happens in game systems all the time.
I just was trying to get some input as to why anyone would take the
power "as is" once you look at the chart you have to roll on - even in
"a life or death situation", based on the idea how it
developed in the source material (history of sykers on faraway - as a
way they had to boost themselves to fight on because of the constant war
with the skinnies and the sheer amount of syker abilities it took to
keep the regular troops safe.)  Yes, I know errata is used to fix or
change items either printed or not explained clearly in a rule book. As
to the game makers being who they are, yes they did design the game and
they know how they want something to work. But they also are not
omnipotent - they may or may not think about all the reasons for a
question in a discussion such as this when they design a new power or
device or even a new character type. I have written freelance and have
done a lot of play testing  for rpg's over the years, so I have a few
ideas about looking at things for both game balance and continuity, too.
I have had to relook at my interpretations when presented with arguments
both for my position and against it. After hearing other playtesters,
editors and players, I have both changed items if they made sense and
have kept them as they were based on their input. I believe quite
strongly that this is the great thing about websites and message boards.
We get a discussion going for both sides and see what the manufacturer
says after seeing it from players, GMs and playtesters and then decide
if a change is right to make or not. After all, with each new rule book,
they say "use these new changes in your campaign if you want to - if
not, then don't".  I was hoping for others to give me reasons that
either balance game play, add to enjoyability or make sense within
continuity - not just brow beat the idea that the game company knows
best - it's their game and that's how it is so deal with it. SIGH. Maybe
now you will see what I meant by posing this discussion.  Thanks for the
input, even if it was not what I was hoping for.
- Jesse VanValkenburg

Doctor23 wrote:

> As to why anybody would take fortitude as Hopler has clarified it, it
> lets you use strain above your normal max. That's pretty stylin' for a
> lousy 1 point Edge. Given PEGs (mostly successful) efforts at game
> balance in the DL games, does it really make sense that you can DOUBLE
> your strain for free for one measly point? Sounds like free power to me,
> and if there's one theme that runs through PEGs games is that power
> always has a cost.
>         But game-design mumbo-jumbo aside, I think you're interpreting the
> second sentence incorrectly. "When a syker uses Stain beyond that (he
> goes negative) he must make a simultaneous Vigor check with each
> blastin' roll." In other words, when you get into negative strain (your
> strain is down to zero and you need to use more), you have to make the
> vigor rolls to avoid brainburn. You CAN go down as far as your capacity
> (if your full strain is 15, you can go to -15). Of course this nobody is
> likely to survive going that far into the negative, but the idea is that
> you only go negative in EMERGENCIES, when a little extra juice can win
> the fight or save your bacon. You should be very reluctant to use much
> of the overcapacity (given the danger), but the fact that you CAN is
> what gives you an Edge.
>         As to some of your other questions (gear prices, for example), here are
> my thoughts. Why pay out the wazoo for a TSAR and it's $100 a crack gyro
> rounds? Because if a syker makes a fair blastin' roll and spends a
> strain it automatically hits the target in the head. Automatically. For
> 7d10 damage. SPLAT! What bad guy? Now how much would you pay?
>         Why shell out for Banshee stones? What's free strain worth to ya,
> brainer? Bear in mind that these strain batteries REGENERATE their power
> over time, and the psyker doesn't have to do squat to make it happen. It
> just does it by itself. Pretty sweet, huh?
>         As to the prices being high, yep they are. This stuff is cool and
> scarce, and that means expensive. So PCs may not start with it, so what?
> Might make good gear for NPCs, or maybe as payment for a mission, eh?
> Some NPC says "I need this doohickey. Bring it to me and this TSAR rifle
> is yours." Brother, I'll be right back with whatever you want! Hope this
> helps you.
>

Thanks Dr.23 -
This is more like what I was hoping for so we could all look at these
things, compare them and see if they add to the game flavor or are too
extreme to be of use. I will take your answers one at a time,  so give
me a sec to think on them each :-).
I agree you are right on game balance as far as getting a lot of strain
for one point, but the problem is that  you end up on the brainburn
chart, and it is so deadly that it makes one question why you would do
this, because you would never use more than 2 or 3 points due to the
risk. Why not spend them in raising your
strain with the edge that has no danger, one for one up to max of 5? Now
you have the extra strain all the time if you need it and do not face
the chart. When the damage was wind it was still enough to make it rough
on a player. What really takes us out is not the wounds - it is the 1d6
of wind that goes WITH each wound (well, most of the time). When it was
that, it was balanced to where you might try it in a tight spot with the
brainburn chart. There are really no "in the middle" things, like for
example "reduce your strain by one
forever or power does not work because you are dazed and now (like
chainbrain) you must make a stun check to act again", or maybe "lose
that power and have to relearn it",  or "lose syker powers for a
duration of time". These would be balancing to the chart and make it
still effective, but not deadly 9 times out of ten. Then I would not
mind it as is. Or you could, as I mentioned, increase the cost of the
power from 1 to 3 or 5 if used in the first "incorrect" way.  Also I
know as a Marshal they have specific flaws for when you botch as a syker
for most of the powers, and you still are to roll on this chart. So,
worst case scenario,  you botch while using fortitude and roll twice on
this chart and have the flaw when you botch. Do you see what I mean? The
junkers and the doom priests do not get hit with all this on their
charts.  It is the game balance thing I was looking at - not that I was
saying it should not be one way or the other.  Rather I wanted to look
(as you did) at balance both for the syker and the other power
characters in the game.
OK.  Now the Tsar.  Yes it is cool to hit automatically in the head with
a fair blastin roll, but it takes two actions to do this. Now the
problem I have is the cost. You can take a normal British gyro for 300,
add a laser sight for another 200, add a scope for range for another 500
(that increases the range to
80) and you then take the same two actions: one to aim then fire.  You
get a +4 to hit, so to hit in the head is a 7 tn with the first round,
and you can fire it at a ROF of 6 so you hit a lot more than once. All
this is only 1000, or one Belongings point. Now the Tsar is 3000 and 100
per shot to gain only a +2. Why would anyone spend 3 belongins for a
tsar, the extra 2000 plus 100 per round vs 5 per round for the iw40? is
the bonus of +2 really worth 2000 more for the gun and 1 round instead
of 20 rounds per 100 you spend that do the same damage? So you see,
again the cost and the balance is not there. It sounds cool and neat,
but when you look at it, it is not worth the bother. Besides, we all
know how easy and simple it is for a junker to make weapons that do a
lot of damage, and are AP and high ROF and range for a lot less. Again
there is not a balance in the two classes or in the simple gear anyone
can buy vs the incredible cost for a gun that only a syker can use and
makes your to hit roll two better. I like the gun, but not at those
costs. Maybe doubling the cost or tripling them over normal guns of the
same type would work: >600 and 10 a shot or 900 and 15 or even 20 maybe.

OK. The stones. Yes, they are cool and extra strain is worth a lot to a
syker. True. But at 1000 per point, a stone costs from 2,000 to 24,000.
This makes them both very rare (as it says) and very costly. Again
balance-wise it sucks.  You can not get one as part of your starting
history on Banshee because the cost is too much, so most sykers will not
come home with them. Now the big down side of making them so valuable is
not only do you have no real way to have one except as a gift from your
Marshal or taking it off
a deader, but you never could afford it after game play starts in most
story lines trying to buy it at a major city or from a caravan.
Compounding this is every bad syker and doom priest that sees you use it
or hears you got it will want it and try to kill you for it, and
probably some earth sykers too (they did not sign an oath either so look
out). Now junkers (looking at balance again) make batteries to power
their devices a lot cheaper. True they have to recharge them, but again,
the power level cost of junker items and storage batteries does more
than a syker can with his powers. Its not balanced if it costs sykers
that much to have that few extra points of strain. Also, I have not run
into many doom priests, but I do not believe there is a way for them to
make or find any item to store the glow and use its strain either.  I
could be wrong, though. If so, please let me know, ok? :-)
OK, next thing is the question of "Yes, we want them rare and expensive
to give out as rewards and plot devices". I again think at first "OK,
that's a good thing", but then I look at game balance again and wonder
why, if that's so true, can a templar start with a relic (a rare and
very expensive item) or the junker being able to start with a device for
free and then scrounge at a cost of only time to find the items to make
many cool things? Why is it the syker is always the one that has all the
restrictions on gear and the one thing that was cool, may be really
deadly and not worth taking at all? See what I mean about balance? And I
won't even get into cyborgs. They are so badly unbalancing to a game I
don't think any player should be allowed to play one.
So where is balance for the syker in comparison to these other
archetypes (or the normal archetypes without any powers for that
matter)? I look forward to hearing more from you and others on this, and
hope John and the rest of the gang at Pinnacle get involved too.
- Jesse VanValkenburg

The Baron Semedi wrote:

> I, too, always interpreted it John's way.
>
> to add as a why: what do you expect from a 1 POINT EDGE?
>
>
Baron -
Yes, I do see how some of us interpreted it as John says it is, but also
how some saw it the other way (not only our group apparently, as he was
responding to others in the post). I was hoping for us all to discuss it
in detail and see if it was balancing with the brainblast chart as is,
comment about how it could be improved or if it even needed to be. As
for a cost of one point, I did also say I thought it should be like 3 or
5 myself for balance if run the first way. Thanks for the comments
anyway.  I would like to hear your thoughts regarding the gear cost and
rarity as well.
-Jesse VanValkenburg

OK - it's Matt again.  Anything else anyone wants to add?  I'll keep on
forwarding stuff to him if you do.

Matt Steflik
Master of Wahoo
Gimme Shelter - http://www.geocities.com/grifflik/