Re: [BNW] Brave New World in the bargain bin

["Steve Crow" <crow_steve@hotmail.com>]

>I don't, in and of itself.  It's an easily quantified piece of the rules,
>and frankly the only thing that sets it apart from a generic system for
>creating a manon the street. Further, in the genre of superpowered
>individuals, powers are the single most important distinction from other
>character creation systems.
>

Sure.  And I agree with you here.  It's a complaint I have voiced before, 
that simply the use of Tricks does _not_ distinguish Deltas with the same 
package enough.  Or to put it another way, all Shooters tend to look alike 
after a while, power wise.  Sure, they're different (probably) 
personality-wise.  But power distinctions are important in superhero games.

Or...are they?  There are plenty of games that do do that.  For what it's 
worth, BNW goes outside the box there.  Do we really _need_ another "Here's 
a bunch of powers - make your new, unique character"?  The market is full of 
those.

>Which goes back to what opened this whole can o'worms in the first place,
>the question of what provides the best "bang for buck".  And I agree with
>you on Bombers.
>

Well, sort of.  When you responded, you phrased the "bang for the buck" in 
terms of character creation and that's what I responded on.  Whether 
Defiants SB provides bang for your buck depends on a number of factors, not 
just character creation.  Thus my "apples vs. oranges" comparison below.

Defiants SB is not a character creation book.  Therefore to factor it into 
an equation of which books give you "bang for your buck" character-creation 
wise (as you seemed to do) is kinda misleading.

If that wasn't your intent, my apologies.

> >Either, IMO, I disagree with your definition of new power packages as
> >"character creation rules," or you're comparing apples to oranges as far 
>as
> >DC Universe/Aberrant/whatever to BNW.
>
>
>FWIW, I'm not the one who initially brought up comparisons to other rules
>systems (that would be Daedelus), but once those apples and oranges were
>already out of the bag, I felt it was fair game to examine the relative
>"bang for buck" provided by the other systems.
>

But again, you only seemed to be comparing it on terms of character 
creation.  By that criteria, Defiants SB is always going to lose because 
it's not a character creation book.  And again, my apologies if that was not 
the case.  It sure seemed that way, though...

>Let me try again on this.  With a meta-plot driven game, I as a GM can
>either use it or discard it.  Fair enough, it's my game, I paid for it.
>But, when I feel that I am not given sufficient tools in the core rule book
>(or in this case books) to do the job, I can't help but feel a bit cynical
>as new rules (power packages, tricks) creep into future supplements, rules
>that are often useful, but also have to be retrofitted into my campaign
>(sometimes with a crowbar).  The worst example of this, IMHO, are the
>descriptions (sometimes vague, sometimes fairly specific) of Deltas (not
>Alphas) who simply can't be created under the current rules (f'rex the 
>water
>projector from Patriot's memoirs).  Yes, I can simply make up a water
>projector.  And maybe Matt will get around to publishing one some day.  And

Well, here's my question.  Why do you care?  Why is any shoehorning 
required?  I haven't seen anything in BNW to date that requires that _all_ 
Water Projectors be the exact same?  Why can't yours and Matt's (which you 
might not be using if you don't buy the book anyway) co-exist?

I guess I don't understand your reasoning here.  If your Water Projector 
contradicts an "official" Water Projector that you don't know exists, does 
it matter?  (kinda like if a tree falls in the woods...  :) )

And even if you buy the book, and find out that yours and the "official" 
version don't match...so what?  Other folks' opinions may vary, but me, I 
figure there are different types of Water Projectors, or Flame Projectors, 
or Elemental Types, or even Speedsters and Shooters.

If you've created and been using a Water Projector for a while, then it's 
probably balanced.  Matt came up with a different version, it's (supposedly) 
balanced too.  So both exist side-by-side in your campaign.  Again, so what?

>then I get to make the decision whether to use my version or his.  But I
>probably won't be able to make that decision without purchasing a $20
>sourcebook first, because I'm an honest soul who doesn't believe in reading
>books I haven't paid for.
>
>With a merged setting/system, the problem becomes one of why should I
>continue to spend money/effort running a game that no longer resembles the
>original source material.  It becomes a bit like using a pair of pliers to
>do a hammer's job.  Sure it can be done, but why not just use the better
>tool for the job?  If I were a game publisher, I'd be terrified of the
>phrase "if you don't like it, don't use it", because that rapidly becomes
>"if you don't like it, don't buy our future products".
>

Yeah, that comment made earlier frightened me too, but I didn't bother 
responding to it.  Note that it wasn't Matt making it, though, but someone 
not associated with BNW or AEG.

But I guess I'm not following the above.  What do you mean future 
supplements don't resemble the original source material?  Do you mean the 
superhero genre in general, or later BNW supplements resembling the original 
material in the BNW book?

If you mean your campaign is deviating substantially from that presented in 
the first couple of BNW books, as more BNW material is released...two 
things.  This is pretty much standard for any meta-plot game:  why do you 
think BNW is (or will be different)?  And...do we really know enough at that 
point to make that determination based on the three books (and a screen to a 
lesser degree) released to date?

>If that doesn't clarify things, well then we'll just have to agree to
>disagree.
>

It clarifies a few things, and raises some other questions...

>Theron
>Houston


---

Steve Crow

"Worm Can Opener Extraordinare"

Check out my website at:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com