Re: [BNW] Sneak Weak?

["Steve Crow" <crow_steve@hotmail.com>]

> > There's a couple of problems with that, though.  For one thing, a group 
>of
> > characters is only as sneaky as the least-sneaky character (like the 
>story
> > about two guys trying to outrun a tiger).  The same doesn't apply to 
>combat.
> >   Which means Sneaks are not that sneaky, overall.
>
>That's not entirely accurate. You can have someone that isn't good at
>combat (like a healer) so they don't get involved as much (and the player
>just has to sit back and wait for his turn). The same could be said for
>the sneak.
>

A poor fighter does not impair a good fighter in a battle situation, when 
the objective is to overcome the obstacle.  A low-rated Stealth character 
_does_ impair a good Sneak in a sneak situation when the objective is to 
overcome a sneak-based obstacle.

> > Unless you're encouraging a lot of "My character goes off while the rest 
>of
> > the party does something else."  Unfortunately, even with the relatively
> > simplified game mechanics of BNW (well, compared to, say its 
>"predecessors
> > DL and HoE, at any rate ;) ), running mini solo-adventures can be 
>somewhat
> > of a pain.  the only way to make them less harmful is to...well, not 
>require
> > the Sneak to sit there and make a lot of rolls.
>
>But the Sneaking could be done in parallel with the rest of the group. Say
>the group is trying to get into a compound, the combat fiends start up a
>ditraction and the sneak goes in, stealthing past a few guards. The
>sneak's actions can be run in turn with the combat. Just have everyone
>roll init. and take their actions as usual. Just because the sneak isn't
>involved in the same encounter doesn't mean he can't take actions during
>the fight.

The problem is then the Sneak has one action (or as many die-roll type 
actions as are required to get past X number of guards), while all the 
combatants have multiple actions (as many of their Speed roll, at any rate). 
  This is boring for the _Sneak_.

>Ugh, it's 4 in the morning and I'm stuck at work I don't think I'm getting
>my point across well at all.
>Hell Steve, you've got a sneak in your group (yes, I read your chronicles
>and am anxiously waiting for week 5 etc.) How is that working? My argument
>is pretty weak coming from a guy that has yet to play the game (but my
>first game is on sunday!)
>

Well, when I have time I'm going to put down a more thorough analysis (look 
for a e-mail subject "Death of a Campaign" one of these days).  However, we 
have ended our campaign for the time being.  One of the reasons?  Because 
the Sneak character was frustrated and bored, for the reasons I've stated 
before.  ;)

[various snippage on lack of "action" to Sneak]

>Well you could develope the stealth rules more:

I could, this merely varies the level of success - it doesn't lead to 
further descriptive actions, variables, etc.  Certainly you are entitled to 
judge levels of success, as established in the rules.  Although the upswing 
of this is to make Sneaking _harder_ for Sneak characters (and presumably 
for non-Sneak Deltas as well), by requiring not a mere success, but 2, or 3, 
or however many successes.

>A success means you aren't spotted, but you don't make any progress
>towards your goal.
>Two successes mean you make some progress (half way)
>Three successes- you clear the room without even leaving a breeze in your
>wake.
>This would add shades of gray and actually a better level of realism. And
>like I said you can add modifiers based on what the char. does. Safer/more
>conservative actions yeild better odds, but less progress, "going for it"
>gets you there faster but with greater risk.
>Stuff like this can be used to improve the "You succeed, you fail"
>situation. Also a failure may not mean that the Sneak is caught, but that
>the guards are aware of something being out of place...
>
> > Certainly there should be chances to "role-play" the environment.  
>But...
> >
> > Remember what I said above about the Sneak being a solo character?  You 
>go
> > into that much detail (which gets dangerously close to the "describe the
> > environment" overload which many rule-designers recommend to GMs 
>anyway),
> > and the rest of the players are going to be twidding their thumbs, 
>whipping
> > out their Gameboys, playing Magic the Gathering (tm), etc.
>
>Well what does the Healer do during a fight? What does the bouncer (who

The Healer _supplements_ combat actions - she is not independent of them.  
The Sneak is typically independent of combat.  Both can participate in 
combat, certainly.  Althogh the rules for "backstabbing" are a bit vague.  
Most folks can't spare an action to make a Perception roll to get an opposed 
roll against a Sneak type, and a Sneak is pretty unlikely to fail a basic 
Sneak roll (what with their typical +10 bonus and all).

>doesn't like to use guns) do when a firefight breaks out? Just because

I guess I've yet to see a combat that was so limited to firearms that a 
Buoncer couldn't get involved.  At the very least, you'd have to pretty much 
set out to intentionally create such a combat scenario.

The difference is you'd deliberately have to create a combat situation to 
exclude a Bouncer.  With a Sneak, you deliberately have to create a combat 
situation to _include_ a Sneak using his Sneak power.

>others can't sneak as good doesn't mean the sneak goes off on his own, it
>just means they should lead the way.
>Take a group sneaking into a compound. The whole group can't just run
>across the yard because there are fences and guards at spotlights. So the
>sneak goes in, gets across the yard and takes out one guard on spotlight
>allowing the rest of the group to get through.

You mentioned "guards" up above - how would taking out one guard let them do 
this, exactly?

>This could lead to a type of sneak close-combat specialist. No other power
>package has the subtlty that the sneak does (well maybe a teleporter in a
>way). Give him a good pistol with a silencer/flash suppressor and he could
>be a real threat, picking people off from a shadow 20 ft. while everyone
>is checking 100yds. away at the tree line for a sniper...
>
> > And I still thinking we're talking about two different things.  I'm not
> > talking "exciting" - I'm talking "dramatic."  A combat can be for all 
>the
> > marbles.  It's a "we need combat to take out the bad guy before he 
>detonates
> > the bomb."  Or "If I don't hack into the system before the virus goes 
>off,
> > the world economy is doomed."  Or even "If I don't persuade that woman 
>to
> > hand me the detonator, we're all dead."
> >
> > Stealth is more of a means to an end, rather than a way to accomplish 
>the
> > end itself.  You can sneak up behind the bad guy to backstab him (A&D 
>Thief
> > characters take note), but that means Combat is the driving force.  You 
>may
> > have to sneak into the HQ to get at the top-security computer terminal, 
>but
> > that means Computer is the driving force.
> >
> > And when you try to make Stealth the driving force ("All I have to do is
> > sneak around the bad guy to press the button to stop the bomb.") it 
>tends to
> > be somewhat anti-climactic, no matter how many opportunities you give 
>the
> > Sneak to take advantage of the environment to boost his Stealth roll.
>
>It doesn't have to be the driving force, but it can be an integral part of
>the encounter. Take the final scene in "Patriot Games" Harrison Ford is in
>the darkened house dodging from cover to cover trying not to be spotted by
>the guys with the machineguns and nightvision goggles. This scene was both
>exciting and dramatic. Sure it ended with a boat chase and big
>explosion/combat. But without the significant sneaking portion the outcome
>would have been very different (and a lot more bloody for the good guys).
>

Sure, but in your example it's a _solo_ character using Sneak.  I don't 
believe I've seen the movie, but how dramatic/exciting would it be if 
Harrison Ford had two other people with him who were lousy Stealth-types?

I'm not denying that a solo Sneak character can't be interesting.  The 
question is, how well do they incorporate into a group, both for the 
character and for the player?

---

Steve Crow

"Worm Can Opener Extraordinare"

Check out my website at:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/

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