Re: [DL] What happened to the Union? (So Many Spoilers, Don't Even *THINK of Looking!)

["Mr. Christopher McGlothlin, M.Ed." <sosentinel@adelphia.net>]

At 12:48 AM 5/5/2002, Nyarlathothep132@aol.com wrote:
>What Happened to the Union? In the real world, it had a massive 
>manufacturing and population advantage.

         Just like the United States in the Vietnam War, the Soviet Union 
in the Afghan War, and...well, you get the picture.;-)

>  Even freeing the slaves in the CSA wouldn't stop that.

         Maybe not, but a 57% percent increase to your free population 
base, gaining international respectability, while robbing your enemy of a 
source of eager recruits and its main propaganda weapon isn't going to 
hurt, either.

>  The Union, historically, should be powerful enough to keep most of it's 
> territory except for the CSA proper- namely, Missouri, Kansas, Colorado, 
> Utah, New Mexico, and Arizona.

         Sure, but it should go without saying that, in DL, history ain't 
what it used to be.

>  Now, as far as I know, the rationale is...
>The Confederacy is getting supernatural aid from the Reckoners, allowing 
>their forces to survive against overwhelming Union numbers.

         That's *part* of it, but the CSA also got rid of its two worst 
army commanders (Bragg and Hood) before they did much damage, and elevated 
one of their best generals (Cleburne) to take their place. Nothing like 
having the clear edge in leadership *and* some eager young recruits to 
follow them.

>  This is why New Orleans went back to the CSA, as did Vicksburg, and 
> Gettysburg became a draw.

         Correct on N.O. and Vicksburg; the military result of Gettysburg 
was unchanged.

>  This easily explains how the CSA has managed to keep it's original 
> territory- but what is NOT explained is how they became so much larger 
> than they were. (Or at least, I can't find it.)

         Read _ToT:77_ and _Back East: The South_ until the day-by-day 
account of The War comes out in Epitaph #5 (I think that's the correct number).

>Missouri, for example, was locked down by the Union pretty well- as was 
>Colorado and Utah.

         Missouri's return to Southern control is documented in _ToT:77_, 
and Colorado's listed as Disputed Territiory, which, if you read over 
_ToT:77_ and the Marshal's book, is not pro-Confederate...more like "less 
than excited" about the Union war effort after 16 futile years.
         As for Utah, there's some guy named Hellstromme who's helped 
change Deseret's "locked down" status in DL history.

>  In Utah, I doubt the Mormons, even with Hellstromme, are strong enough 
> to secede the *entire state*.

         It's not so much that as the Union doesn't have the strength to 
put them down. The Union has suffered over 100,000 casualties in DL they 
didn't historically, and 16 futiles years of war have made new recruits a 
lot harder to come by.

>I find it unlikely that the Sioux Nations could realistically become an 
>independent nation, even with the spirits. On the other hand...they could 
>become a state in the Union.

         You sell the Sioux short and the Yankees long.

>New Mexico and Arizona were never claimed by the CSA

         Wrong. You may wish to read up a bit on the actual 1862 NM/AZ 
Territory Campaign.

>hey certainly would be as the CSA desperately needs the Ghost Rock in the 
>Maze, but I dont' see how they could have taken either regions from the Union.

         They did it once in real life. Why is it so much harder to believe 
in DL?

>What my question boils down too- What happened to the Union that allowed 
>it to be chopped up like it was put into a blender?

         Loss of thousands of veteran troops, good leaders, a just cause 
for making war, fatigue, loss of political will, public apathy, *AND* 
having the Reckoners smack them around for 14 years + every blessed thing 
you could imagine going right for the South.

>  Kansas I can see being disputed, but not Colorado.

         See above.

>  Salt Lake I can see independent, but not all of Utah.

         See above.

>  A "special status" I can see for the Sioux, but not their own massive 
> nation.

         See above.

>  New Mexico and Arizona should certainly be Union (I've never seen an 
> explanation for why they became CSA, either.)

         See above, and the Marshal's book.

>  The Union's got the population and manufacturing capacity enough to 
> prevent it losing any more territory than California (again, the Great 
> quake and lack of railway access makes that fairly plausible) and the CSA 
> proper.

         See above.

>  And if the casualties from the war are that great, then the CSA is in 
> far, far worse shape and should be unable to take New Mexico or Arizona.

         Why?

>  I can see the CSA putting up a fight in Kentucky, though. Since the CSA 
> would depend on Maze ghost rock, New Mexico and Arizona almost have to go 
> to them- I'd just like a rationale, or a cool reason.

         Read the Marshal's guide.

>And then there's Detroit.
>
>The British couldn't possibly have enough forces in Canada to challenge 
>the Union, which is, population and industry wise, a 600 pound Gorilla.

         These days, the Union's more like an angry marmoset. And why 
couldn't the World's Superpower muster enough troops to challenge the 15K 
bluebellies spread from Maine to Seattle?

>  It's unlikely enough that Britain would have ever recognized the CSA 
> (They needed the US more than they needed the CSA's cotton), but that's 
> fairly acceptable.

         Unlikely perhaps, but no less so than, say, the dead walking the 
earth.;-)

>  But attacking the Union? Mind-bogglingly unlikely and very risky. I 
> don't buy that the Union couldn't take Detroit back, either.

         Here, we are in total agreement. If I could take a big ol' eraser 
to DL continuity, I'd take back the whole Detroit thing.

>I only ask because this kind of thing needs some backup. I'm certainly not 
>demanding Deadlands be historically accurate.

         I, however, do, within the boundaries of "magic works" and 
"steampunk tech exists", etc.

>  I'd just like to know what the Reckoners did to "ruin the Union...."

         I'd recommend doing a bit more reading--both DL and real 
history--and if that doesn't do the trick, please feel free to post some 
follow-up questions.

Deo Vindice,
Mr. Christopher L. McGlothlin, M.Ed.

Freelance RPG Writer At-Large
Member, Academy of Adventure Gaming Arts & Design
Moderator of the New Gamers Order Listserver
Southern by the Grace of God