Re: [DL] Re: Mad Science/Junker Science [long, possibly spoilers]

["Ronald Conner" <marshalron@hotmail.com>]

>
>I'd just like to warn anyone who's looking at this
>post, it's gonna be long, considering all the pasted
>text.

I was content to let it slide up till this point.
But since this is the deadlands list and not the HOE list I'll go easy.
The real point behind this gripe is that character classes shouldn't require 
the marshal or players to be more creative than they already are.  The class 
should be playable without tremendous amounts of experiance or rules 
tweaking.  I'm saying that MS and Junkers have that single flaw but that It 
can be fixed with more information or rules clarifications.

> >>Junkers:
>
>Big things here.
>
>"The Junkman Cometh" is great.  Very well done but
>still not complete.
>
>
> >>The Healing power, and the Spirit Weapon power both
>have suggestions
>for
>devices but no examples of completed works.  Med-kit,
>and unlicensed
>Particle Acclerator.  Where are the stats!  I want
>finished products
>not
>vauge outlines.<<
>
>The problem with making such "finished products" is
>that what defines a med-kit or blaster is variable.  A
>junker could make a 1d4 wind damage laser, or a 20d20
>gamma ray bombarder-both are covered by Flash Gordon.
>The same goes for Healing- you make anything from a
>hypo spray, to a resurrection chamber and everything
>inbetween.
>
Anything would have been preferable to vauge outlines.  An example gives you 
a way to figure out the rest of it.  Without a basis for compareison I'm 
thowing darts in the dark.


> >>1. The story portion and explaination are very
>necessary for the plot
>of
>playing a Junker.  But it takes up 2/3 of the book.
>The remaining 1/3
>is
>powers about half of which are gun powers.  They seem
>to take up the
>most
>space in the book with detail but we are discouraged
>from even useing
>these
>powers but taint, madness and death.  What's the point
>man!<<
>
>The plot stuff is *vitally* important.  Without the
>wheres, whys, whos, and hows of Junkerisms, you've got
>some bums with neat doodads.  Also, all the negative
>aspects of Junker tech is meant to emphasize one
>point: Junkering is DANGEROUS!!!!  These Junkers
>manipulate forces they cannot totally understand or
>control.  There's a reason people don't like these
>guys...

I see that but it still makes you think, gee maybe inventions weren't 
important enough to put in.  Story is great, background is important.  But 
the tools needed to play the character, IE. examples, tables and rules are 
MORE important and deserve either more space or their own book.
>
> >>2. A mad Scientist uses parts of other devices to
>make his inventions.
>You
>could attach any invention to a steam wagon without
>takeing anything
>away
>from the wagon.  A junker can't add a radio to his car
>without the
>possibility of it going to hell in a handbasket.<<
>
>You must remember that a radio in a junker car runs on
>g-rays, i.e. liquid evil.  Converting a standard
>device into something that can run on spiritual energy
>fundamentally changes the nature of the device, and
>messes with it's spirit.

You misunderstand.  I'm not talking about adding things to the origonal 
device but attaching modular peices to something that is already complete.  
Different spirits or different power sources.  It doesn't always feed into 
the same spot.

>
> >>3. Why do browser and familier spirits die if their
>host shell is
>destroyed?
>   If a tech spirit is floating around the hunting
>grounds that means it
>was
>in another device at some point.  If it's current host
>is destroyed why
>doesn't it return there?  There is always some chance
>that it will get
>jumped by nature spirits but shouldn't we have a say
>in that, a die
>roll, a
>card pull something?  I nurtured a tech spirit to
>level 5 and just
>because I
>was in a car wreck I lose it?  That's a jip.<<
>
>Losing a spirit in this way follows in much the same
>way as a manitou being destroyed when a harrowed gets
>capped: the spirit has a lot more invested in the
>body, and consequently has a lot more to lose.
>However, losing such a sweet spirit because of a wreck
>sucks.  Maybe fixing the car would revive it...
>
>

I restate my origonal argument.  The spirit doesn't die when it's host is 
destroyed.  It returns to the hunting grounds.  It shoulding be destroyed 
unless it encounters a nasty nature spirit or is attacked by something.

> >>4. What is wrong with independant inventions.  Why
>does the plasma gun
>mount
>on my new car share the same spirit.  Can't it have
>two?  A car spirit
>for
>the car and a gun spirit for the new plasma gun?
>Seperate stability
>checks
>for each?<<
>
>I believe the point of one stability check was to
>simplify and streamline the system.  However, you must
>remember that all the devices are connected, via the
>power supply or whatever, they can affect each other.
>

Sure they can affect each other but that doesn't answer the question of why 
a car spirit can control something that should belong to a gun spirit.

>
> >>5. Scroungeing- Big list here.  The tables in TJC
>are for building a
>device
>from scratch.  I already have a car, bought with my
>belongin's edge.
>Can't
>I just add things to that?  Modify it in some way?
>There are no stats
>for
>basic cars, guns, houses, or tools.  How many slots
>does your average
>car
>have?  How many components?  What powers?  Just
>locomotion?
>Locommotion and
>Commo?<<
>
>Again, the reason such things weren't in the book was
>due to lack of space.  However, I should point out
>that you *can* still put complete items into gizmos.
>While never explicitly stated in TJC, John Hopler has
>stated outright that you can still do this, and is
>probably widely done amongst junkers in the game.
>

That's all well and good for people who have internet access.  But for the 
rest of the world, Stateing that somewhere printed or putting component 
lists for basic items would be nice.  As it is I have to figure out exactly 
how many it would take to build a real working replica (and that is a lot of 
math in mid-game) and then break it down by component.

> >>7. Sitgraves pioneered a lot of things.  He actually
>managed to make
>manitous create elements and items out of thin air.
>How could this
>part of
>his teachings be lost when it comes so integral to the
>post judgement
>day
>life of a junker.  He said the only item he couldn't
>create was ghost
>rock.
>Well damn it i'm holding you to your word.  Why can't
>junkers do
>better?  A
>least for chemical, structural or Mechanical.
>Electronic I could
>understand
>that takes more finesse than a manitou has but if they
>can evolve one
>aspect
>of his hexes the rest should follow.<<
>
>If you read the plot part of TJC, you'll see that
>while Sitegreaves *could* create elements out of thin
>air through thaumaturgical diffusion, such things
>weren't permanent.  They were held in existence by the
>power of manitous, and were gone once that power was
>lost.  This was why Junkers switch to the more stable
>thaumaturgical substitution.  A Junker/Huckster can
>certainly make a gear/plate/circuit board out of thin
>air, but would *you* wanna risk backlash for every
>component?
>

Now here you are just wrong.  The book thaumaturgicla diffusion never says 
that the conjured items don't stay.  That is part of the infernal machine 
hex.  And it only applies to finished machines.  The second part of this was 
that if one of sitgraves hexes can evolve why not others.  He can create 
matter out of thin air, why can't Junkers, what happened that would prevent 
them from doing so.  And I don't think that it has anything to do with 
manitous.  If tech spirits couldn't emulate them to this degree say so.  
Then I can throw my hucksters back in.  But it leaves a lot of questions, 
just like the spell magazine is super abusive this is going to come up in my 
group and they want to see something offical.

>I think the important thing to remember when playing a
>junker, mad scientists, or any roleplaying character,
>is creativity.  You have to be able to imagine,
>reason, and improvise if you want to succeed at such
>endeavors.

Junkers and MS are just as easy to play as any other character when you are 
prepared for them.  But that preparation requires lots of study from 
NON-offical sources.  From a marshal standpoint they are not as easy to RUN 
in any game without experiance.

Ron C

"Ewige Blumenkraft!"

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