[DL] Re: Mad Science/Junker Science [long, possibly spoilers]

[Scott Hacker <smilingbandit2@yahoo.com>]

I'd just like to warn anyone who's looking at this
post, it's gonna be long, considering all the pasted
text.  


>>Here is my gripe.  I'm holding all my cards for when
perils of the new 
science comes out but this is going to be my argument
into the arena of 
scientific endevors.

Mad Science and Junkers are underdone and where they
are done are done 
poorly.  I'm partialy happy with "Smith and Robards"
and "The Junkman 
Cometh" because they handle my two new favorite
character classes.  But 
they 
still rankle.<<

I must say I disagree with you on these issues. 
Frankly, I think that MS and Junkers are some of the
best made groups in the Deadlands universe.  Needless
to say, further elaboration awaits you below.

>>"Smith and Robards" is not wholely about Mad
Scientists.  It is for the 
most 
part but sections are devoted to things not really
completely related 
to MS. 
  The section on driveing and artillery, (which are
mismatched anyway 
and 
combined badly)  Are nice and very complete but have
only a passing 
relavance to MS in general.  The entire section on New
Inventions is 
very 
helpful because it provides some nice flavor, new
skills, new starting 
inventions and a good resource for item stats for
marshals.<<

While driving and artilley rules are hard to put
smoothly into any book, I must say that there isn't a
better book to do it in the S&R.  Mads make lots of
vehicles and guns, and it's important that there be
some groundwork down on how such things operate.  I
agree with you on the rest.

>>What it doesn't do is provide a useful guide to
inventing for the 
newbie MS. 
  Alchemy, engenieering, tinkering, and general theory
are all left for 
the 
player to invent or the marshal to dictate.<<

Personally, I believe the vagueness of the invention
rules are Mad Science's greatest asset.  Remember,
these folks are bending, sometimes breaking the laws
of science.  In order to build such fantastic devices,
a Mad has to be creative and inventive.  Laying down
strict rules on 'this does this, and that does that'
is very limiting.  This may be a bit over the head of
a newbie Mad Scientist, but if they can't get with the
program, then they probably shouldn't be a Mad.


>>outline for improvements.
1. Define Ghost rock, Please?  For all our Sakes!<<

Ghost Rock is intentionally vague.  It is designed to
be this creepy mistical substance, that can be used as
a sort of binding between the realities of a device
and the fantasy.  It is both mundane and magical. 
Defining exactly what it can do would remove it's
weirdness.

>>2. The periodic table would be nice.  I have a copy
but for alchemy it 
would 
be nice to provide more than three examples for
common, uncommon and 
Rare 
items.  Some d20 based selection charts of commonly
used items maybe?<<

A periodic table would frankly be a waste of space. 
Go online- you can find a periodic table for free. 
The page that such a table would take up in a book
could be far better used.  The same goes for a chart
of components.  Most components are common sense
stuff- just think about what something does, and how
it does it, and you'll figure out what components
would be appropriate.

>>3. Junker tech goes a long way towards makeing this
better but some 
standards for construction would help.  MS get the
short end of the 
stick 
character wise and seldom get very much return.  I had
one character 
who had 
to spend several game weeks in research because of
failed alchemical 
formulae.  That took him out of the game.  He couldn't
fight, couldn't 
investigate, couldn't do anything because he had to
spend all that 
wasted 
time researching.  And why.  Because he didn't get a
very decent 
starting 
invention.  He couldn't use it as a weapon because it
was single use 
and 
cost too much to make.  He was stuck.<<

I must say that the player who complained about these
problems was just boo-hooing.  First, research takes
time.  It can take years, decades even, for the
average researcher to reach a successful conclusion
for his topic of study.  The player should have been
prepared for this.  He can't expect his
super-weapon/miracle potion to come hurtling out of
the sky when he says "Shazam!"  The player could have
chosen to abandon or postpone his research to go
adventuring, but he didn't. 
Further, if he got a shitty starting gizmo, it's his
own damn fault for picking it.  Basically, he made his
bed, and now he's complaining that he has to lie in
it.

>>4. Some nice Basic abilites for Mad Scientists would
be great.  
Hucksters 
have tricks, Blessed have gifts, Martial artist get
non-Chi manouvers.  
What 
do our mad friends get?  Squat!<<

They can build *anything* they put their minds to. 
I'd say that's a pretty damn useful power.  Remember,
Mads generally don't know they're magical types; their
power is very low key, though the results of it are
not.  Giving them "tricks" or "gifts" goes entirely
against the concept of Mad Scientist, turning into
another spell slinger.

>>5. The biggest problem with Mad Science that I have
is the sort of pawn 
aspect that most of them have.  Even a well read MS is
still a pawn for 
the 
reckoners.  Even our hero.  He doesn't know he is, he
never even gets 
the 
chance to choose.  Regardless of what he uses his
gadgets for he 
furthers 
the plans of the reckoners.<<

That's not entirely true.  The Mad Scientist isn't
forced to invent evil things or weapons of
destruction, simply tempted.  He still does have free
will.  I've had several Mad Scientists in my group,
and all of them have definitely hurt the reckoners
more than helped.  Leave the pawn stuff for NPCs,
player MS's are heroes.

>>Junkers:

Big things here.

"The Junkman Cometh" is great.  Very well done but
still not complete.  
The 
lack of any serious Inventions in the book aside from
the 6 that appear 
in 
the book (1 of which is almost impossible to use)
angers me.  It has 
been 
said that without the Deadlands dispatch there would
have been more 
room but 
that is not an excuse.<<

I agree with you on this.  The problem was simply that
there wasn't enough room to cram everything into one
book.  Cuts had to be made, and I'm glad it was not in
the powers section.

>>The Healing power, and the Spirit Weapon power both
have suggestions 
for 
devices but no examples of completed works.  Med-kit,
and unlicensed 
Particle Acclerator.  Where are the stats!  I want
finished products 
not 
vauge outlines.<<

The problem with making such "finished products" is
that what defines a med-kit or blaster is variable.  A
junker could make a 1d4 wind damage laser, or a 20d20
gamma ray bombarder-both are covered by Flash Gordon. 
The same goes for Healing- you make anything from a
hypo spray, to a resurrection chamber and everything
inbetween.

>>1. The story portion and explaination are very
necessary for the plot 
of 
playing a Junker.  But it takes up 2/3 of the book. 
The remaining 1/3 
is 
powers about half of which are gun powers.  They seem
to take up the 
most 
space in the book with detail but we are discouraged
from even useing 
these 
powers but taint, madness and death.  What's the point
man!<<

The plot stuff is *vitally* important.  Without the
wheres, whys, whos, and hows of Junkerisms, you've got
some bums with neat doodads.  Also, all the negative
aspects of Junker tech is meant to emphasize one
point: Junkering is DANGEROUS!!!!  These Junkers
manipulate forces they cannot totally understand or
control.  There's a reason people don't like these
guys...

>>2. A mad Scientist uses parts of other devices to
make his inventions.  
You 
could attach any invention to a steam wagon without
takeing anything 
away 
from the wagon.  A junker can't add a radio to his car
without the 
possibility of it going to hell in a handbasket.<<

You must remember that a radio in a junker car runs on
g-rays, i.e. liquid evil.  Converting a standard
device into something that can run on spiritual energy
fundamentally changes the nature of the device, and
messes with it's spirit.

>>3. Why do browser and familier spirits die if their
host shell is 
destroyed? 
  If a tech spirit is floating around the hunting
grounds that means it 
was 
in another device at some point.  If it's current host
is destroyed why 
doesn't it return there?  There is always some chance
that it will get 
jumped by nature spirits but shouldn't we have a say
in that, a die 
roll, a 
card pull something?  I nurtured a tech spirit to
level 5 and just 
because I 
was in a car wreck I lose it?  That's a jip.<<

Losing a spirit in this way follows in much the same
way as a manitou being destroyed when a harrowed gets
capped: the spirit has a lot more invested in the
body, and consequently has a lot more to lose. 
However, losing such a sweet spirit because of a wreck
sucks.  Maybe fixing the car would revive it...


>>4. What is wrong with independant inventions.  Why
does the plasma gun 
mount 
on my new car share the same spirit.  Can't it have
two?  A car spirit 
for 
the car and a gun spirit for the new plasma gun? 
Seperate stability 
checks 
for each?<<

I believe the point of one stability check was to
simplify and streamline the system.  However, you must
remember that all the devices are connected, via the
power supply or whatever, they can affect each other. 


>>5. Scroungeing- Big list here.  The tables in TJC
are for building a 
device 
from scratch.  I already have a car, bought with my
belongin's edge.  
Can't 
I just add things to that?  Modify it in some way? 
There are no stats 
for 
basic cars, guns, houses, or tools.  How many slots
does your average 
car 
have?  How many components?  What powers?  Just
locomotion?  
Locommotion and 
Commo?<<

Again, the reason such things weren't in the book was
due to lack of space.  However, I should point out
that you *can* still put complete items into gizmos. 
While never explicitly stated in TJC, John Hopler has
stated outright that you can still do this, and is
probably widely done amongst junkers in the game.

>>6. This was brought up twice in recent memory but
fully bore 
scroungeing is 
not really covered.  You have a device that has been
found, declared 
good 
enough to function and been loveingly restored by some
scav from the 
wastes. 
  Now it's mine and I want to use it as the base for
my next device.  
What 
is it's worth in components?<<

This is basically a judgement call.  There are a
number of junk tables on the web that could give you a
good jumping off point for this kind of thing.

>>7. Sitgraves pioneered a lot of things.  He actually
managed to make 
manitous create elements and items out of thin air. 
How could this 
part of 
his teachings be lost when it comes so integral to the
post judgement 
day 
life of a junker.  He said the only item he couldn't
create was ghost 
rock.  
Well damn it i'm holding you to your word.  Why can't
junkers do 
better?  A 
least for chemical, structural or Mechanical. 
Electronic I could 
understand 
that takes more finesse than a manitou has but if they
can evolve one 
aspect 
of his hexes the rest should follow.<<

If you read the plot part of TJC, you'll see that
while Sitegreaves *could* create elements out of thin
air through thaumaturgical diffusion, such things
weren't permanent.  They were held in existence by the
power of manitous, and were gone once that power was
lost.  This was why Junkers switch to the more stable
thaumaturgical substitution.  A Junker/Huckster can
certainly make a gear/plate/circuit board out of thin
air, but would *you* wanna risk backlash for every
component?

>>That's all I have for now but rest assured I'm going
to persue this one 
till 
PEG writes a book on it or I have to do it myself.<<

I think the important thing to remember when playing a
junker, mad scientists, or any roleplaying character,
is creativity.  You have to be able to imagine,
reason, and improvise if you want to succeed at such
endeavors.
BTW, I just want to apologize if any of this sounds
preachy.  These are just may opinions, your milage may
vary.


=====
"I was a warped little boy.  Now I'm out to warp the youth of America."- Weird Al Yankovic
Remember, conformity is the mother of obscurity;
be true to yourself in everything you do.
Happy Roleplaying,
-The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again!/Ha-Ha-Ha>

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