Re: [BNW] Languages (was Weak Powers)

["Steve Crow" <crow_steve@hotmail.com>]

> > But...that's the problem with languages in a RPG.  You can't buy every
> > language that may possibly prove useful for every adventure your GM 
>writes.
> > A GM is going to either A) build an adventure around the languages the
> > players take (doesn't make much sense sending the PCs into an 
>infiltration
> > mission deep into German territory if none of them except the Translator
> > speak German), or B) ignore the limitations and send them into (for this
> > example) Germany anyway, and assume they have a working knowledge of 
>German.
> >   Neither one requires a Translator.
>
>No, neither requires a Translator. But both of them would be a LOT easier 
>if
>there was a translator along. Just like fighting Nazi soldiers in the 
>trenches

Sorry, but I don't follow.  I can assume the PCs know German whether I 
provide a translator or not, neither one is "easier" than the other.  A 
Translator doesn't give me greater flexibility or ease to build adventures 
in foreign settings because he's only (typically) a small part of the group, 
and the rest of them can't speak the language.

>doesn't require a Blaster or Gunner, but damn... you sure wouldn't mind 
>having
>one! The Allies (nor the Axis) needed Aces to put up an adequate fight in 
>the
>skies, but hey, it sure doesn't hinder us any either. A Translator can use 
>a gun
>as well as anyone (except a Gunner) and, by and large, guns are just as 
>effect
>on Deltas as they are on your average Nazi schlub.
>

The difference is that I don't require a Translator to perform a 
storytelling mechanism that I would do anyway whether the Translator was 
present or not.  That mechanism doesn't require the Translator, and doesn't 
make it any easier for anyone else to deal with languages.

> > Unless the GM forces them to take languages, the players have the final 
>say
> > in what languages they speak and (to a varying degree) what adventures 
>they
> > participate in.  Most GMs that I am aware of don't cede this level of
> > control ("Hah, we're not going to take Japanese so you can never send us 
>on
> > Japanese-type adventures during world war II!").  So usually they rely 
>on
> > the convenience of "transparent" language translation.
>
>If they don't think to take languages, and you have a pretty liberal stance 
>on
>them taking them, tough for them. Take advantage for not covering as many 
>bases
>as they could possibly (especially in a WW2 campaign where almost 
>everything
>you're gonna be doing is in a foreign nation). You have to look at all a 
>PC's
>weaknesses and strengths to make a good adventure, IMO. Sometimes you put 
>them
>in situations where their abilities are ideal and make life smooth and 
>happy.
>Other times... you put them in a living hell where nothing they usually 
>rely on
>is worth a pile of dung beetles. Make them figure that one out.
>

But Glory Days is...mission-oriented, for lack of a better word. The 
military may not send the absolutel best people for the job every time, but 
they at least make (one hopes) intelligent decisions about who to send.  Why 
send a group that doesn't speak German into Germany on an infiltration 
mission?

> > The problem isn't limiting their ability to take languages:  it'll be 
>making
> > sure they have the languages they need to go on the adventures you 
>design.
> > Alternately, if they don't need different languages to get by in your
> > campaign...what good is a Translator?
>
>A translator is incredible. I wish I had the power to almost instantly
>understand and learn any language in the world (or galaxy even!). I'd make 
>mad
>cash doing UN jobs. If I overhear a Japanese spy I can figure out what he's
>saying and BING! Save my unit from that ambush coming over the hill there 
>or
>deliver the enemies movement plans to my general. Hell, I'm a hero and I 
>didn't
>even have to get shot at! Action is not the only way, though it is a 
>perfectly
>valid one, to make an RPG interesting. I know players who pride themselves 
>on
>having never engaged in a single fight in an RPG (especially people who 
>love
>courtiers in L5R). That sort of thing bores them, but the intrigue part 
>fires
>their blood. More power to 'em. More power to you if you enjoy the combat 
>and
>action aspect more. So long as we're having fun and not ruining anyone 
>else's,
>right?
>

Again, the "weakness" of the Translator package as published has nothing to 
do with combat.  The fact you can make cash as a UN job translating doesn't 
necessarily make the package useful in the general type of adventures that 
occur in Glory Days.  I can't say much of spies who discuss their plans out 
loud where they might be overheard, but that's another story...  :)

> > I understood what you mean, but it has nothing to do with the convention 
>of
> > translation in a movie, and how it functions compared to the awkwardness 
>of
> > translation mechanisms in an RPG.  Translation in _any_ kind of movie is 
>a
> > smooth, invisible effect.  Like 99% of Star Trek episodes, or a movie 
>that
> > has someone with sign language being translated for the audience's 
>benefit,
> > or subtitles.
>
>The people in Star Trek have universal translator devices... just like the
>Translator power... built into their comm systems. ;)
>

Exactly.  There is no "Translator" character in Star Trek.  And if you try 
to imagine how such a character functioned on Star Trek, I'd think you'd see 
that all it would do is slow down the episode and make it boring for the 
audience.  Which in this case is the players.

> > Translation in a RPG is a long, laborious procedure that slows down game
> > play and enjoyability. You can make it invisible, but if you do there is 
>no
> > reason to have a Translator as a PC.
>
>If you want to make it a chore, yes. You can look up every word in Russian 
>and
>make your players find a way to translate it. Or you can tell them... 'You 
>don't

Nope, you misunderstand.  My point was concerning the international team of 
PCs mentioned earlier, that need a translator merely to communciate with 
each other. There are two ways you can handle this:

1) Player A says, "Tell Player B 'XXXXX'". The Translator then turns around 
and tells Player B "XXXXX'. You don't need to jump between languages or have 
a translation dictionary out.  In other words, everything gets said twice.

2) Player A says, "Tell Player B 'xxxxx'" and the Translator says "Ok."  
Which doesn't leave really much for the Translator to contribute.

The difference here is between making it a chore (A) or not having the 
Translator really do anything here (B).

>understand what he's saying, but the way he's looking at you and shaking 
>his
>rifle you think he's asking you something pretty important'. Then they 
>could
>demonstrate, though their body language and hand motions, they aren't there 
>to
>fight (or they could blow him off the face of the planet and leave a pair 
>of
>smoking boots). Lack of communication can make for incredible and tense RP
>situations where, if the players instantly understanding the basics of all
>languages they realize his guy is asking who they are and what they're 
>doing
>here. It becomes much easier to disarm the situation and reduces the 
>'required
>RP' level.
>

Agreed, but this brings us back around to the point I noted earlier.  The 
Translator in this case is the only person who can participate in trying to 
figure out what the guy is saying and communicate with him.  This isn't a 
matter of making a die roll and moving along, it's a matter fo role-playing 
out conversations that the rest of the party isn't privy too.

> > The question here is what value does a Translator bring to your gaming
> > session, both for himself and for the other players?  If he has to 
>translate
> > between players, then he slows down game play and restricts other 
>players'
> > ability to talk to each other (and in every group I've ever seen, 
>players
> > want to interact among themselves as freely as possible).
>
>No. He doesn't need to slow down the players. With him you have a valid 
>reason
>to just keep speaking English and never think twice about a second 
>language. He

You don't _need_ a valid reason is my point, any more then you do in movies 
(hyper-cinematic or not). We live in an age where directors, screenwriters, 
and audience alike don't have to think twice about a second language anyway, 
and the concept of translation is understood.

If everybody understands what everyone else is saying thanks to the presence 
of the Translator (and in this case, his is an automatic function), then why 
do you need a Translator...?  It may be "realistic" but if that is the only 
value he brings to it, IMO it isn't necessary.

>-does- slow down the characters as he has to translate the words. Making 
>tense
>situations tenser if he can't spout off the words fast enough for quicker
>decisions. What happens when a bomb shows up andi ts all written in 
>Swahili...
>I'm sure every PC has Swahili! I know mine do! ;)
>
> > If the group is in a setting where knowledge of a language is required,
> > they'll either have the language themselves (rendering the Translator
> > unnecessary), or will be unable to interact for a large part with that
> > environment because they don't know the language.
>
>Hell, if I were a criminal mastermind/villain I'd write everything in an
>uncommon, little known language. Like mandarin or some backwater African
>language that barely has an alphabet. Who in the world knows that sort of 
>stuff?
>Less than one tenth of one percent of the population... but the Translator
>doesn't even blink.
>

And again, in most modern entertainments (and RPGs are a modern 
entertainment) no one else blinks either.  The audience doesn't blink the 
characters don't blink.  Introducing a Translator _makes_ folks blink, not 
just introduce drama and suspense.  Of which there are plenty of ways to do 
that anyway.

Look at it this way;  you cited Saving Private Ryan earlier.  How many 
scenes in that movie revolve around the characters deciphering languages 
that they don't understand?

> > If the group is in setting where they don't know the language and it is
> > required, but only for a single person, then they will be forced to sit
> > around and listen to the Translator not just make a single die roll 
>(like a
> > Hacker or Charmer or Sneak), but role-play out conversations.
>
>That's the point. They should be -forced- to RolePlay the situation and not 
>make
>a dice role. At least, that's my philosophy. You like rolling dice? Roll 
>dice.
>Whatever makes the game more enjoyable for you and your friends.
>

But everyone lacking the language _can't_ roleplay the situation, which was 
my point.  While some other character types _also_ suffer from a single, "I 
can do it, but everyone else has to sit around and watch me" power (the 
aforementioned Hacker, Charmer, and Sneak), those mechanics can be moved 
through quickly and easily, without detriment to the other players, with a 
die roll and appropriate modifiers.  You can't do that with a Translator PC 
- their forte is conversation, which can _only_ be handled via role-playing.

It has nothing to do with die-rolling, only that with the other skills 
die-rolling will reduce the other players' "blink" time.  Role-playing 
conversations that only one player out of six (or four, or ten) has any way 
to participate in does not, IMO, make for an interesting gaming session.

>I hope some of my ideas help you think of ways to make the Translator an
>interesting and, at least helpful if not vital, part of the game.
>
>

I have never doubted or disagreed there were things that a Translator can 
do.  I thought of a dozen different things they could do as soon as I read 
the package.

The problem is that those things are limited to one person (the Translator), 
AND cannot be moved through relatively quickly by die-rolling. Forcing other 
players to sit there and watch a conversation between a Translator and a NPC 
in a foreign language (even though the GM is "translating" for the players 
even if the characters can't understand) is about as interesting as...say, 
going to a movie and watching the main character having long conversations 
with another character in a language you the audience don't understand.

The more you cut down this foreign-language conversation time to keep the 
other players' interest and give them things that their characters _can_ do, 
the more you cut down on what the Translator can do.

Now if your other players _like_ that kind of thing, more power to you. Mine 
come into RPGs with the impression that it's a group-participation kind of 
thing, and whether it's interacting with NPCs or having conversations that 
they can do it as a group. A Translator power package as published doesn't 
lend itself to that.  Your mileage, of course, may vary.

Hope that clarifies things.

---

Steve Crow

"Logic merely enables one to be wrong with authority."

Check out my website at:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/

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