Re: [BNW] The Sneak, Death of a Campaign and more

["Steve Crow" <crow_steve@hotmail.com>]

> > I don't expect every
> > package to be combat-oriented.  Sneak has its own problems, which I've
> > mentioned elsewhere, though.
>
>I think the example sneak in ravaged planet is pretty combat oriented. He's
>equipped with a high power rifle with a scope. It sounds to me that the
>intention was for him to be a sniper (he can smuggle a rifle into places
>where a gunner cannot).
>

Again, my concern has never been that a Sneak is or isn't "combat-oriented" 
per se.  Just that (as the original poster noted) his powers in general pale 
in comparison to other Skill-bonus types.  He only gets one more success on 
smuggling in a rifle than a Gunner who invested in Stealth would, for 
instance.

That, and my other recently-stated concern that a Sneak seems to be unique 
(at least until the Defiants SB, and similar cases such as Charmer and 
Hacker are then more powerful) in that he is the only Power Package that can 
be duplicated by anybody else through the simple expenditure of money and 
experience points to buy skill levels.

>But I think that there's too much focus on the combat aspect of the
>different powers. If you take a look at the screamer and hotshot, then you
>have two power packages that could have a lot of creative uses, but all the
>rules concerning them is about combat.
>   Why can't the screamer create sounds that could trick people? Why can't
>the hotshot control fire? The same goes for the telekinetic, why all her
>skills combat skills?
>

No argument there!

> > You can certainly than deviate as far as Skills.  But then it becomes a
> > skill-based game, not a delta/super-power based game.
>
>I have always looked at this game as a skill oriented game with the extra
>option of limited powers (even though many power pagakeges aren't that
>limited). My impression of BNW is that it belongs to the 'super agent' 
>genre
>and that it is placed somewhere between the Watchmen and Shadowrun in its
>style.
>

Unfortunately, that means it tends to lack appeal to those who want to play 
superheroes...and might understandably pick up the game out of such a 
desire.  If folks want to play agent/spy types, they play agent/spy type 
games.  If they want to play superheroes, they pick up a superhero game.  If 
the game falls somewhere in-between...well, it tends to be a turnoff to both 
such groups, leaving a much limited subset of folks who fall in the middle.

Just off the top of my head, the incidence of spies-with-powers RPGs and 
their success in the market is relatively low compared to either spy-games 
or superhero-games.  Granted, there are other factors involved beyond simply 
the popularity (or lack thereof) of the genre, but I still think it's a 
reason the game doesn't have much appeal around here, from what I've seen.  
Your local demographics may vary.

> > And my players don't want to min/max the game...but they do want to 
>design
> > powers to their _taste_.  The mistake here is in assuming that just
> > because people want to have some say in the powers (subtle or otherwise)
> > that define their character, that they are min/maxers.
>
>I found that comment a little odd too. I know that I will allow people to
>modify the power packages to their taste once I get around to start a
>campaign (I want to run a primer campaign so I wait).

I just wish there was guidelines (any guidelines) with which to do so.  A 
game with super-powers (no matter how low-end) can get unbalanced, and 
suffer from such unbalance, quicker than any other genre-type that I know 
of.

>   As to development of packages then I will certainly allow people to come
>up with new tricks that allows them to use their powers in new creative
>ways. I have no problem with the fact that the powers don't increase over
>time.
>

Nor do I - see my previous comments.  But as far as Tricks, see my comments 
above.  "Balancing" any aspect of a superpower is a very delicate act, and 
one that can have much further and significant repercussions, than in most 
other RPG genres.

> > Yeah, Marvel was designed to basically let you play Marvel's super 
>heroes,
> > and that was it.  It was fun recreating many of those marvel heroes for
> > the Marvel Universe series when I helped out Chris Mortika,
>
>Have you seen the new Marvel game? It rocks! It is ten times better than 
>the
>old one (not that the old one was bad).
>

It looks fairly interesting, but I haven't had the time or money to pick it 
up.  I'm also more of a DC fan.  And did pick up the new DC Universe RPG 
this weekend.

As an aside, the DCU game is actually not too bad.  You simply have a pool 
of dice, and then disads give you more dice, and advantages take away dice, 
and skills and powers cost dice as well.  When your pool is
empty, your character is done.

Unfortunately, it then goes off on a number of tangents and wanders off into 
calculator-territory.  And of course, since you are building a character 
entirely from scratch, with a potential range of powers, the options (and 
subsequent time to create a character) are even larger.  So I can see why it 
wouldn't jibe with Matt's idea of what a superhero RPG should be.

But...as per my previous post, I still get the impression players around 
here think BNW went too far the other direction.  As I noted, perhaps if BNW 
had still limited you to a single package, but then given you a range of 
options within each package, it would be better thought-of among the folks 
I've talked with.


> > The simplicity is okay up to a point, but there's currently nowhere to 
>go
> > beyond that.
>
>There's a problem in the fact that Matt several times say "We know but we
>wont tell". It is not the job of a roleplaying author to tell a story or
>reveal secret to the gamemaster. It is his job to create building blocks
>from which the GM can create 'his' stories.

Well, that's another issue.  I think the current standards of the market 
dictate otherwise.  Pinnacle is doing the same thing with the whole 
Deadlands/Hell on Earth/soon-to-be Lost Colony thing (and Shane Hensley got 
it in part from Torg and his work therein), and it seems to be working 
pretty well for them.  The popularity of the JM Straczynski style of 
storytelling with B5 (which Matt has noed to me is the kinda thing he is 
pursuing anyway, what with writing all of the first 3-8 books himself :) ) 
tends to make this a bit more popular also.

I don't mind that Matt is doing that particularly.  Although of course if 
the game tanks, you never find out the whole story unless the author 
publishes it personally.

I think as long a you tell a story _and_ give a Guide building blocks for 
telling stories, it's not a problem.  Matt is doing that, and more power to 
him for doing so.

>   If the author keeps the most fundamental building blocks away from the 
>GM,
>then he intentionally reduces the usability and quality of his product. A
>supplement should not reveal something, it should add new thing to the game
>or expand on things already there.
>

Reluctantly, I would agree with you, although personally, I think Matt's 
approach is solid as far as the background story and his approach to telling 
it.  The problem is that limited-power packages may be appealing to a 
Guide/GM/whatever, but judging from the lack of response around here, it's 
not popular with _players_.

Again, Iowa is probably not the best demographic area to point to, but at 
the convention I was attending this weekend, with an attendance of 260 
people, NOT ONE PERSON showed up or expressed any interest in the two BNW 
demos I tried to run.  The few people I pinned down that I knew to have some 
interest in the "superhero" genre expressed exactly the concerns that my 
regular group of players did, and that I have tried to express in previous 
posts.  Even with free time, I couldn't interest them in a brief one-player 
demo.  You'd think my copy of BNW had leprosy.  :(

Even for a demo adventure, where pre-supplied characters are supplied, they 
didn't want a "cookie cutter" superhero.  I played up the "dark heroes" bit 
and didn't mention the "low-end Delta powers" thing at all in the 
program-book descriptions, but apparently the word is out.

There are undoubtedly other reasons as well for why the turnout may have 
been low (the RPGA tends to monopolize local events, IMO), but it's not like 
other non-RPGA events had no attendance, either.  In fact, my non-BNW events 
were actually pretty well attended, despite being in less-optimal time slots 
than the BNW ones!

It's frustrating.  I don't begrudge the expenditure of money (I've spent 
just as much on games I've never had a chance to play or discuss at all).  
But I think AEG may perhaps have to listen, not to the 10% of the people who 
_did_ buy the game and have a problem with the limited-power thing, but the 
80-95% of the folks who did _not_ buy the game and have a problem with it.

And again, maybe Crossroads will fix this when it comes out down the road.  
Good.  But if the folks it will appeal to have been turned off the whole BNW 
thing by then, it may not make a difference...

>Nikolaj Lemche


---

Steve Crow

"Worm Can Opener Extraordinare"

Check out my website at:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com