Re: [BNW] Dissapointments

[Mark Kilfoil <kilfoilm@nbnet.nb.ca>]

Sidhain wrote:
>
> Yes but that's my point why have such similar archetypes when by taking
> quirks you can really change the "type"

Well, if you mean BNW "Quirks", they aren't quite that powerful to be
on level of powers, generally..  And most templates will have some
similarities (strength, speed, armour) but extra variations...

And the difference between "Speed +5" (Bouncer) and "Armour 5 and 
Healing Factor" (Scrapper) is pretty significant...

> > As for the Gunner...  I thought about it, and it fits one of the
> > modern archetypes for a comic book hero, believe it or not.  Punisher
> > was a Gunner;  the Grifter is a Gunner, I believe (not sure on this
> > one -- he just makes guest appearances in some of the comics I read).
> >
> 
> Two characters does not a template make, sorry to say it just doesn't work
> that way, I started worked on a superhero game based entirely on tunable
> archetypes, and "Gunner" wasn't one of the consensus from gamers or comic
> characters--what came up was "Martial Artist" which meant any
> Martial/Weapon skilled personage--could be Green Arrow, master of bow, 
> or Punisher master of Guns or what have you.

Interesting way to look at it...  Oddly enough, we had a character come
through here a little while ago who was a natural "Martial Artist" --
Buffy the Vampire Slayer!

However, the Gunner is a subtype of Martial Artist in this terminology, 
as would be the Master Bowman, Master Swordsman, Fighting Artist (kung
fu,
tae kwon do, etc.), Knife Master, etc..

A general Martial Artist would be too powerful as a template, but each
of the sub-templates of Martial Artist would be great templates.  Let's
add them!

(I would also say that Gunner also includes John Woo-esque gunmen (both
heroes and villains)...)

> I'd rather have more common archetypes: the true list taken from over 200
> roleplayers and comic fans :
> Battlesuit Hero

Actually, the Gadgeteer fits this role, more or less...  You could also
have a hero who is basically a reg, but has a suit built/maintained by
a Gadgeteer (much like the Delta Prime's Armorgeddon forces are).

> Blaster
> Brick
> Changeling

Shapeshifters?  A little too powerful, in the general sense..  But I
think
that could be added without much trouble....

> Gadgeteer
> Martial Artist

As I mentioned above, you could describe this as a "meta-template", 
because it's Powers depend on what flavour you want to play, what
specialty you want to have;  in this case, Gunner would become a
sub-category under Martial Artist.  (Don't have a problem with this,
btw...)

> Psi

All around Psionics would be too powerful, but specific psionics (like
the Telekinetic and Teleporter) would be fine.  Once again, we have
a "meta-template"...

> Speedster
> Stalker

In what sense?

> Wizard

Magic is the one spot where BNW tends to not focus, except for the 
Bargainers.  Wizards also seem more versatile, and perhaps more powerful
(except if they had quite a bit to do in order to use their powers..).

> Other common elements--nearly all blasters in comics can fly, only a
> handful cannot.

Well, there are two answers to this.  One, too many "common" elements
and
you have nothing but a generic system, which isn't what BNW is supposed
to be.  Two, you can use Tricks to overcome some of those shortcomings
in some of the powers without overshadowing another template -- see
the Rocket! Trick for Blasters or the Mind Your Own Matter Trick for 
Telekinetics that I created (on my web page -- won't repeat them here
to bore people) -- basically they grant a limited form of flight that
is based off of their powers.  (They are a bit extreme right now, but
no one has commented on them, so I haven't had incentive to change 'em.)

Even Pinnacle seems to suggest common flight among powers, but since
they included the Flyer package they have to be careful not to over
shadow it..  One picture goof is on BNW, p 212, the lady in the back
who is floating with "blaster-hands"...

> The package system would be fine if we had a complete set of packages--or
> even packages that were based more off of comicdom than those in BNW

Well, "complete" is a tall order, because there will always be something
they missed...  I wouldn't have minded more powers and in particular
more
Tricks, but there's a printing calculation to throw in here -- but I
decided not to, because everyone realizes that adding material 
(especially colour plates and "balanced" material) adds time and money
to the project that they will not recoop (because the end price would
either be the same, or they would be forced to raise the price,
resulting in fewer sales for the same income).

Personally, given the number of superhero games I've played over the
years, and the wealth of material out there describing generic 
heroes, I can find inspiration for new packages everywhere.  And with
a little extra thought, I can create a fairly good package that's 
consistent with the feel of the existing ones.

> don't get me wrong I like BNW, I just expected more--of course that happens
> with 99% of the games I buy, only two in the last 15 years have truly
> surprised me with their quality, flexibility and design....one is Fuzion,
> the other is the Marvel Super Hero Adventure Game (Marvel Saga)
> (and Yes I bought Fuzion via Champions TNM. 

Marvel is a great source for power ideas, but was kind of a silly
system with way, way too much background.  (Its background was the
entire Marvel universe, which was a mishmash of hundreds of comics 
over decades, with no overriding theme, no focus, and no point.  
Don't get me wrong:  individual Marvel comics were great, but the
overall universe was just too much.)

Fuzion and Champions are kinda cool, and I design just about anything..
But it always feels like I'm just about to build an intricate
electronic circuit, but first I have to mine the copper myself... and
little story, although to be fair I only read and did not own the
newest Champions stuff..

> Nothing wrong with that  I like Feng Shui, but these days I like a lot a
> games but there are only a few I run, those games tend to be detailed, and
> flexible and don't make me spend 25.00 dollars a whack for rules that
> should have been in the main book.

Well, it would surprise me if new books for BNW didn't contain any new
templates, for the simple facts that a) people have inspirations later
b) some Delta powers would be directly tied to whatever is described 
in the book.

I would expect very few Core rules in future books.  The system is 
simple enough and well covered enough that they shouldn't need to do
much of that.  Besides, Pinnacle demonstrated with the Deadlands and
Hell On Earth lines that rules changes are available online *and*
printed in books, to make people not forced to buy new books *just*
for the rules changes.

> I had a choice this time of Aberrant or BNW I picked up BNW because I 
> liked the synopsis of what I had seen and I just don't like WW's system
> very much, the thing is however is at least if I had bought Aberrant I'd
> have a complete game.

Well, all your missing is a few powers and some tricks, right?  I mean,
those we can create if we want them...

> Now take this all with a grain of salt, I am not really angry over it, or
> frustrated *L* just pointing out what I feel is wrong, what I don' like,
> let me point out what I do...

I've been criticized for criticising criticism lately, so I'm trying to
be fair, too...

> While the system isn't innovative it's simple, it's fast and using
> templates (I won't call em archetypes since they really aren't 
> archetypical superhero character types) a game can be started in a few
> minutes with a little bit of background/story work by a decent GM.

I hope so...  I'll be running it at a con in a few weeks..  It certainly
was easy to get into at the demo at GenCon...

> The book is very nicely laid out, and illustrated, the art isn't over the
> top pretentious, nor is it too Image esque (though it does have some of
> those elements), 

Yeah, although I've got to laugh every time I look at the cover of 
Ravaged Planet, with Patriot's "cheese-eatin' smile"...  Just a bit
too much for me...  8)

> The setting is extremely interesting, and the fact that we
> get some of the "secrets" right up front is a good thing.

Just enough to give a Guide something to "uberplot" with...

 
> What Should have been: Should have Cut out Vampires, Aquarians,
> Bargainers,Mafia, Cops  and shoved all the normal Delta type packages as
> could be fit in the remaining pages. Cops should be kept to a shorthand
> form, as well as Mafioso types, 

Well, the first two are specific setting answers, the next is 
admittedly rather poorly detailed but still cool enough (IMHO) to 
include.  The Mafia seems to be destined to play a big role in BNW,
but I wouldn't have minded if they weren't describe in Profile format
but rather in simply paragraph format (saving some space).  And cops,
well..  While they could have been compressed, compressed profiles 
will probably look like crap...

> and I'd rather have to buy a book detailing
> the "Normal People" than another book to get all the powers.....(and
> truthfully Three books to get some of the powers (still not all)  isn't
> just obscene, it's usury)

Fortunately, that's not what we're getting:  we're getting three books
which go into depth about the world, and just "happen" to contain
more templates...  ;)

Hope I haven't been too fanatical... trying to keep my temper down and 
my reason focussed.. 8)

Must be time for a XL-Double-Double or a Cappecino...
-- 
             the encaffeinated ONE 
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