Re: [pyrnet] Separation anxiety in re: neutering

["Kerry Kern Woods" <woodskk@eburg.com>]

Joe,
The entire difference is that very few shepherds now stay with flocks
unless they
are out on the range or in the mountains.  My parents had several
bands of sheep
and herders with the bands.  I watch over my livestock but do
sometimes have to leave
and things can happen.  I knew of an Anatolian that was with a herder
but while
the herder slept the dog visited farms in whatever area they were in
and killed
the farm dogs.  This left the flock unguarded and in danger.  The dog
was
killed eventually because of his ways.  He could have possibly been
drawn in
to the farms by in season bitches and killed males that resisted him.
We can not compare the ways of LGDs of yesteryear who had a human to
monitor them with the LGDs of today that do not on this, that is like
apples and
oranges.
Even with a female LGD penned up the male is going to stay as close as
he can to where she is penned.  Removing his effectiveness if the
livestock
is in a distant field.  This has been proven.  Bev Coates is one who
will
also attest to this.  A very pregnant bitch is also not an effective
guardian.
The one time (many years ago) I have had to shoot over a stray dog's
head was when my bitch was
almost due and couldn't get out to the field.
A dog will pursue a coyote in season, then 9 weeks later a new batch
of coydog pups.  Do you remember the lady in OR who for years told
everyone
that pyrs would only breed within the pyr breed?  That took forever to
correct,
unaltered pyrs are dogs who are hormonal and think with their bodies
at certain
times instead of their brains.  Especially without a 24/7 herder to
monitor.
Kerry


>I really do not want to disagree with you as I fell strongly we
should neuter
>and spay.  Any downside I may deem in place is pale by comparison to
not
>doing it as we use our dogs in our contemporary world.
>
From a historical point of view, it would be interesting to see how
the
>Shepherds in the Pyrenees Mountains dealt with the problem for the
last
>several thousand years.  I would be surprised if they neutered and
quite
>surprised if they spayed.  So what did they do if the Pyr will mate
with
>Wolves and coyotes (no Coyotes in Pyrenees Mountains I do not
believe, but
>point is there).  Do you think they would loose their guardian
instincts
>during this period and allow a wolf to mate with them?  Would a male
Pyr go
>off after a female Wolf in season leaving the sheep?  Also would a
male Pyr
>be so distracted with a LGD bitch in season, coyote, or wolf that it
would
>not guard?
>Isn't the missing variable the lack of continuous human function in
the
>actual guarding?  The historical model is a shepherd (s), a LGD (s),
and a
>herder/guard dog(s).  The shepherds role is just as important to
success as
>the dogs.  Mostly in our contemporary models the shepherd is missing.
Is
>that a fair statement?  If not missing, do they stay out in the field
24/7
>with the dogs and livestock?
>
>I would guess that the Shepherd would remove the bitch in season when
she
>came in.  Removed her far enough away to not be a distraction to the
males
>present.  Does anyone have any historical references on point?  Will
a male
>Pyr pursue a female wolf in season?  How about a coyote female in
season?
>Not a female coydog, but coyote?
>
>Joe
>