Re: [pyrnet] Fw: Fw: LGDs, giving a talk

[JGentzel@aol.com]

In a message dated 3/9/01 3:28:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
mapleway@iolinc.net writes:


> which we know Pyrs were bred to be left alone for days and nights at a time 


Actually Pyrs were not bred to be left alone.  They historically, for maybe 
as long as  5000 years have worked with a shepherd and other dogs, including 
the herder dog, Berger des Pyrenees.  What has been reported is they can and 
have been left along with success and this has evolved to being put out alone 
completely or with little human contact.  This has resulted in some disasters 
for the dogs and everyone connected.  The more knowledgeable human contact 
they have the better they will work.  We are very happy that our beloved dogs 
can do so well left alone, but lets keep it in perspective and not assign 
this fate to them as if they are some specialist that should be expected to 
work alone.  Unfortunately a lot of the literature says just what you are 
saying and our "official" publications do as well.  So it will be hard to 
overcome this misinformation as no one seems motivated to get it right for 
the sake of the dogs and of course the livestock and farmers.    

It seems that 90 to 95% of what Pyrs and other LGD's do is "mark and bark".  
This is generally enough.  The other 5% is where the problems are.  There are 
some true working farms maybe on this list that can give you some information 
about numbers of dogs with number of acres and numbers of livestock.  There 
are also some who will *always* give you an answer and portray themselves as 
some expert and they are not.  Your problem and mine are to know the 
difference the "want to be" pretenders and those who actually have good 
reliable information.  Generally there would be more success with multiple 
dogs and the numbers go up with large acreage and large numbers of livestock. 
 Also the type predator is a concern (duh ??  brilliant statement?). Some 
predators pose more of a threat than others of actually attacking with the 
dogs present.  The packs of feral dogs, etc., is another concern for the 
numbers of dogs.  I am sure you will get a lot of varying opinions here, but 
if you want I can refer you to someone who I like their approach and analysis 
on numbers.  It seems beneficial to the welfare of the dogs and in the long 
run to everyone else.  

<<The conditions they're often put in here in the US along with it being 
drilled in peoples' heads to buy from "working only" stock and put no real 
effort into molding their natural abilities seems to be working against the 
dogs.>>

You are correct in saying this and in my opinion this is some urban legend.  
Some dogs do better than others no matter the breeder.  The "working only" 
breeders *mostly* start at the bottom of the chain for their breeding stock, 
i.e. the culls almost and in actuality many times.  Interesting how they 
suddenly become specialists and have the specialists dogs that must be 
preferred over someone who breeds the complete dog and might show their dog.  
These same people tell the Diary Goat folks who show their  stock that their 
show stock cannot milk as well, so it maybe is self-serving?  

Pyrs are such an ancient natural breed they do all this with extremely strong 
instincts that we have not bred out yet and to my knowledge I see no 
immediate danger of us doing same.  My theory is when we start to loose these 
wonderful unique qualities of our dogs including these so basic guardian 
ones, we will have already lost the breed in the hands of those who have it 
happening.    
    

Good luck on your talk.  I and I am sure many others are available to help 
you any way you need.  We have to  give out accurate information.  There is 
already too much of the other out there. 

Joe