Re: [pyrnet] trouble between dogs-LONG post

["tmseller" <tmseller@gateway.net>]

Jan,
Thanks for your suggestion.  Of course, it's not what I wanted to hear, but
it is what I expected to hear.  Sadie has always been an inside dog when I'm
home and of course Bonnie does not want to go out when it's hot outside.
Neither has ever been crated.  They've always had free run of the house and
are used to all being inside or outside.  How hard would it be to get either
dog to use a crate now?  I really didn't expect the suggestion to let them
fight it out fly, nor the idea of giving them both the boot.  The great
majority of the time they get along OK.  Bonnie even convinces Sadie to play
with her on occasion.  Of course, playtime is short-lived and usually ends
with Sadie grooming Bonnie's ears, but at least Sadie gets a little playful
and lets Bonnie romp without getting mad.
I guess it just distresses me that there is no good way to break the
aggression so I don't have to keep the dogs separate.  I'm not sure they've
built up a strong "hate" situation, but Bonnie sure does a lot of things
Sadie doesn't approve of (and Sadie quickly lets Bonnie know).  Even if
Bonnie barks at something out the window, Sadie has to get up, see what it
is, and "OK" Bonnie's barking at it.  If Bonnie starts to bark at something
without Sadie's permission, Sadie turns aggressive.
Unfortunately, Sadie's aggression is also rolling over to some of my human
guests, which is another reason I'm looking for another solution other than
simply keeping them separate.  She has not threatened or bitten anyone yet,
but she has begun posturing and growling at things that bother her.  For
instance, a young fellow came in the other day with a pair of headphones and
a portable tape player.  He was playing music loud enough that it was
disturbing Sadie so she sat facing him and began a low growl at the young
man (actually at his headphones).  I stopped her and scolded her for that
behavior and she no longer growled, but she remained edgy as long as she saw
the headphones.  It seems that as Sadie gets older, she has days where she's
REALLY grumpy and another dog walking too close past her, or even a person
walking closely past her gets a growl.  She hasn't done this to me, but to a
couple of my friends that she has known for years.  Sadie gets put outside a
LOT these days for inappropriate behavior.
She's even started challenging me.  Typically when I give each of the dogs a
bone Sadie will end up with both of them after the initial interest has worn
off and Bonnie leaves her bone laying there.  Sadie will leave one under her
paws while chewing the other and has challenged me when I reached to pick up
the other bone to give it back to Bonnie.  Sadie's gotten rapped across the
nose forcefully for this, then made to roll over on her back and let me
place my body weight over her pinning her in a submissive posture.  After
this happens, she doesn't question my authority in these matters for another
few weeks, then we seem to start over again.
Bonnie does not seem to start the fights, but certainly doesn't back down
once Sadie starts it.  I've been working with Bonnie to obey my command to
stop when she responds to Sadie's attack and she's getting better at this.
She doesn't want to stop, but will obey with a light hand.  Of course, it
doesn't take much of a move on Sadie's part to get Bonnie going again and I
have to watch closely for this.
I don't know if they fight when I'm not home (at least no real damage is
evident).  I've seen Bonnie come in from outside with a few marks on her,
but nothing serious.  I suspect the marks I've seen Bonnie come inside with
are for the same reason that Sadie has always shown aggression toward my
Keeshond, Gooser (16 yrs old) - Sadie attacks if Gooser makes any noise or
barks when I drive into the driveway.  Usually this would result in a
puncture wound or gash on an ear or over an eye.  I've never come home after
leaving them inside and seen any evidence of fighting (blood, gashes,
toppled furniture, etc.).
I've wondered if some/most of the fighting comes from jealousy.  For
instance, Bonnie has her spot in my chair next to me, while Sadie has never
gotten up there (actually she probably couldn't fold herself into the space
Bonnie fits into).  Sadie now sleeps in my chair when I'm either away or in
bed and I've started allowing this since I've had Bonnie so that Sadie gets
"chair" time.  I make a point of giving Sadie private pet time, where Bonnie
cannot nose in and she is ignored when she tries.  Bonnie's content to let
Sadie have her bone first, get petted first, etc.  Bonnie does not seem
interested in challenging Sadie, rather she simply doesn't want to back down
once Sadie starts something.
By muzzling Sadie, she's not so quick to start a fight.  She hates the
muzzle and she's starting to know the word "muzzle" and what that means.
Sadie's much quicker to stop growling immediately now, so I'm still holding
out hope that I can train her to leave Bonnie alone at my command.  With the
aggressive breed in her, however, once Sadie gets wound up, it takes a while
for her to settle down.  It seems that as long as I stop her before she gets
wound up, we can settle things peacefully.  I was hoping that with use of
the muzzle I could discourage Sadie from starting fights.  She has gotten
better since I've started using the muzzle, but as I mentioned, that
requires quick action on my part to get the muzzle in place before it gets
out of hand.
Do you think it is reasonable to think I can keep her from starting fights
if she consistently gets negative reinforcement using the muzzle every time
she begins to growl?  I guess I'm still looking for a solution that allows
both dogs to be free in the house at the same time.  Am I being too
optimistic?  I've even considered asking my vet for "doggie downers" for
those days when Sadie is especially grumpy or edgy, or when other people or
dogs come in the house (which often spurs aggressive behavior in Sadie).
Would a home visit from a animal behaviorist be useful in helping me find a
solution?  I don't have a lot of extra money at this time, but would spend
it on a behaviorist if I thought they might find another solution.  Any
other ideas?

I realize most of this post was not about my Pyr, but I appreciate your time
and ideas.  I've grown accustomed to the wisdom and experience of our more
seasoned dog owners/breeders on this list providing valuable information and
hoped you could again provide some insight to guide me through some
alternatives (or if I'm simply being overly optimistic, you'd tell me so).

Thanks again (I thank you, Bonnie and Gooser thank you, and Sadie thanks
you),
Tammy :)
tmseller@gateway.net



----- Original Message -----
From: ARIEGE <ARIEGE@xtra.co.nz>
To: Pyrnet Pyrnet <Pyrnet-l@gamerz.net>
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 2:36 AM
Subject: [pyrnet] trouble between dogs


> Only way out I can see Tammy is to keep them separated at all times. One
in,
> one out, one crated, one uncrated. Please don't put them together for an
all
> out "donnybrook" to see who comes out on top or what or who is left
intact,
> just not worth the vet bills and hassles.  You have 2 dominant breeds
> together. No point in following the suggestion of "putting the boot in"
> either. Call me "old fashioned" but if it were me I would keep them apart
at
> all times and not force them to co-exist.  Give them both time with you
> separately but don't expect them to be buddies, it's not going to work
from
> my experience. Don't get caught in the middle of a scrap either will you.
> Dogs are dogs, they all want to be in charge if permitted, thing is we in
> our pecking order don't allow this so if they can't be dominant over us
well
> they'll pick another pet in the household to try and dominate them.  Those
> who own dogs/bitches who do get on are very fortunate, those who own
> dogs/bitches who don't must make arrangements to keep the peace and never
> the twain should meet for safety's sake of dog and person in the middle.
All
> the alpha owner routine in the world may not work when a "hate" situation
> has built up between 2 dogs/bitches. We all hope that day will never come
> and our dogs can co-exist together.
> Kind Regards, Jan,
> Jan Chaplin Ariege-Roussillon Pyreneans. Visit my sites at
> http://www.geocities.com/janellachaplin/
>  send a Pyr Posty http://www.geocities.com/janellachaplin/cards.html
>  join here http://www.egroups.com/group/CaninePostcardCollectors
> or visit here http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/PetsPl/pyreneanmountaindog/
> and site of PMDC http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Zoo/6339/
>
>