Re: [PyrNet-L] Breeding/rescue debate

[Kshoffman@aol.com]

In a message dated 03/14/2000 1:34:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
clhenke@juno.com writes:

> Kelly, When you sell your pups how do you guarantee that they ( the new
>  owners ) will become good breeders themselves?

Hi Cindy,

I attempted to explain my position, my methods, and my past history in this 
regard in a prior post to this list, subject heading "[PyrNet-L] Re: 
[Pyr-Net]:breeding question/showing" dated 03/12/2000.  So, in addition to 
what I include here, please go back and review that post.  Clearly I don't 
start off a whole crop of new breeders, and I want that to be noted as such.

We are very selective about who we would consider allowing to start breeding 
Pyrs using breeding stock we are responsible for bringing into this world. 
There have been few such people over the years. While we can't 100% guarantee 
they will become good breeders themselves, and live up to the standards we 
ourselves strive to live up to, we do the best we possibly can to ensure that 
they do, and we do not take such potential arrangements lightly.  Only once 
so far have we been disappointed and we have not made that same mistake again 
although I'm not so sure it could have been avoided in the first place.  We 
try to really get to know people well and to be a good judge of character, 
but unfortunately, we don't have a crystal ball.  Things change and people 
change and such can't always be anticipated.

Admittedly, most who approach us thinking they may have an interest in 
breeding Pyrs change their minds after hearing how we *require* things to be 
done.  They either decide they are no longer interested in breeding because 
it's too expensive and too much work and too time consuming, or 
unfortunately, they just go elsewhere and get their breeding stock from 
someone else who has no such strings or constraints attached and will allow 
them to cut corners and do things differently than what we suggest is the 
right way.

"Elsewhere" with these type of folks is likely going to be a farm breeder or 
a flea market or a backyard breeder to get their breeding stock and then they 
begin to do things all the wrong ways, possibly primarily because of lack of 
education and too haughty an attitude from breeders like myself.  This is 
what makes me wonder in such situations ....  *if* we had been less 
controlling and insistent on things being done in certain precise ways, might 
these peoples' final outcomes as far as the quality of the dogs they end up 
producing and how they end up placing them have been better?  Would there 
have been better results in the end if we had not driven them away from us 
and towards other less responsible breeders who don't give a rat's patooty 
about what they do and how they do it? Or, were those types of breeder 
wannabes just going to do things their way -- the wrong way -- no matter 
what?  I just don't know the answer to these questions, but I am certainly 
very leery and very hesitant to lessen our requirements for who we might 
allow to breed with stock we have produced.  Attempting to discern blissful 
ignorance from willful ignorance can be difficult.  The blissfully ignorant 
may well be educable whereas the willfully ignorant most often are not.

We insist on co-ownership with anyone who gets stock from us that might be 
used for breeding.  We insist on having input and/or approval on whether or 
not a breeding potential pup is actually bred once they are grown out, and if 
so, how it is bred and how puppies are to be placed. We lay every detail of 
the terms and expectations (for both parties) out in written contract.  We 
insist they follow the same methods and procedures that we have followed in 
the past for health screening, mate selection, screening of potential buyers, 
purchase agreements and terms, and ongoing follow-up to ensure successful 
placements.

By doing things in this fashion our own name and reputation is on the line, 
and we make that very clear to folks up front, that if they breed using OUR 
Dogs, that they become an extension of us basically which means they must do 
things like we do for the most part.  I feel it is imperative in such 
cooperative breeding situations that the parties get along well, share 
similar visions and goals, know how to work together and compromise on 
disagreements when necessary but not to the detriment of the breed, and 
perhaps most important, that the parties are in close and constant contact 
with each other and are more or less friends beyond their association via 
dogs.  We never approach such arrangements as a "business relationship".  We 
approach them as lifelong friendships and a common commitment to the breed 
and to dogs in general.

>  How many people do you
>  see as needed to breed dogs, to provide good healthy dogs in to the
>  future, is there a limit?

I can't really answer that question because I'm not sure we (collective we 
who love and are committed to the long-term welfare of this breed) have a 
truly accurate picture on the present numbers of dogs being produced and the 
precise demographics of both the breeders and buyers who are producing and 
acquiring them, but I *can* tell you that the bulk of rescues (in my area at 
least) are NOT coming from breeders like myself.  They are coming from 
profiteering breeders, generally so-called "farm breeders".

So, before we could really determine how many of the not-so-good types of 
breeders could potentially be replaced by exceptional breeders, and what the 
*real* market for Pyrs is, we would need to know how many failed dogs perhaps 
would not have ended up in rescue if the proper education and support had 
been provided to begin with, versus how many owners were going to fail a dog 
no matter what and should never have acquired a Pyr, or any dog for that 
matter, in the first place, versus how many are from whole or partial litters 
from irresponsible breeders that simply could not be placed and were 
surrendered to shelter or rescue organizations.

I can tell you for certain in my area that during the time I was heavily 
involved in rescue I met a vast number of potentially "good owners" who just 
started out on the wrong foot -- with poorly bred dogs and no support 
network.  Typically, they ask for help too late. They haven't been taught how 
to recognize the early signs of potential behavioral problems and nip them in 
the bud.  I'm not necessarily talking poorly bred conformation here, although 
the conformation and type of such dogs in my experience is most often lacking 
as compared to the written breed standard. I consider poor conformation to 
the breed standard to be the least of our problems as far as rescue is 
concerned, but it is however a very real facet of what typically comes 
through rescue organizations.  It was the overall health and temperament of 
the rescues I happened to work with that was of great concern to me.

While owner counseling was an integral part of our time volunteering with 
rescue, we still spend much time counseling and educating folks in the 
general public on problems they are having with their Pyrs, or on the nature 
and nuances of the breed to those who are in the early stage of considering a 
pet purchase and a breed suitable for them.  Most folks who call in need of 
counseling with a problem dog have basically already started down that road 
of discarding their dog, or are heavily leaning towards giving up their dog.

I have a lot of experience to go on in this regard, and I truly feel most of 
these folks would have been perfectly good and responsible pet owners if they 
had not gotten a poorly temperamented or unhealthy dog in the first place, 
and if they had received the necessary education and ongoing support during 
the most crucial periods of raising/training their puppies/dogs. I'd say 
during the years I worked rescue and worked with such owners, a good majority 
fell into this category -- they'd have been just fine if they had acquired 
their dog or puppy from a good breeder, a dog out of pedigrees with proven 
health and stable-temperaments to begin with.  This was the classic profile 
of the owner surrendered Pyrs that came directly into our rescue program as 
opposed to going to shelters.

Because we did have quite a few of these owner-surrenders, we were able to 
determine where the bulk of these dogs were coming from, and we kept copious 
notes and videotape on all rescue dogs, shelter surrenders, shelter stray 
pickups, and owner surrenders.  From that information and data we were able 
to deduce fairly reliably that the strays and the anonymous owner-surrenders 
out of shelters were likely coming from the same places/breeders/pedigrees as 
the direct owner to rescue surrenders, and that most of these dogs were all 
rather closely related and that most of their problems were really genetic in 
origin.

We more often than not saw the very same health and temperament problems in 
the majority of dogs that came through the program and evaluated to be 
unsuitable for placement after being fostered for anywhere from a few days to 
months.  In our area during the time we worked rescue, less than 10-15% of 
rescue dogs were determined to be placeable.  It takes a very special, 
experienced, trained and dedicated owner to rehab a screwed up temperament 
(when it is even possible, which in my opinion it often is not) and to take 
on known health issues in such dogs.  There simply are not such qualified and 
dedicated people standing in line to save these types of dogs.  That is the 
simple fact of the matter. 

>  Just because you breed good dogs, do you think
>  that all who buy from you should also go into breeding?

Absolutely not!  I think I made that very clear in previously referenced 
post.  However, I also think that occasionally, someone with the "right 
stuff" comes along who might truly make a caring and dedicated and 
conscientious breeder, and in such cases, if after many lengthy discussions 
and several personal meetings I still think they might make good breeders, I 
would be happy to welcome them aboard and help me with MY mission to improve 
the situation we see far too often as regards unwanted Pyrs, at least in my 
geographical area.  The truth is, this doesn't happen very often at all, such 
great potential new breeders.  I admit that.

You have to understand that the most dedicated breeders have the same 
commitment, conviction, and passion to producing nice healthy mentally stable 
Pyrs that those heavily involved, invested and dedicated to rescue do to 
saving and placing every discarded dog.  There is however a big difference 
though.  Most such breeders have years or even decades of experience with the 
breed, including intimate knowledge of the true situation with rescue, 
whereas most such rescuers are only around for a matter of a few years at the 
most and their knowledge and experience is often not all encompassing.  The 
sad part is, regardless of whether we are talking about a dedicated breeder 
or a dedicated rescuer we have to face the facts.  Not all people in the 
world are THAT committed to animals or to anything else for that matter.  I 
understand and can accept that fact of life begrudgingly.  We have to work on 
solving these problems within the boundaries of reality.

>  Who do you think
>  eventually becomes the backyard, make a buck, breeder?  Just curious.

Quite honestly I think backyard breeders are the least of our problems.  The 
so-called farm breeders, or simply what I call the "profiteering breeders" 
should be our point of focus and our primary concern IMO.  My interpretation 
of the "backyard breeder" really makes little if any money breeding dogs. 
They are not a big threat to the breed IMO. Backyard breeders tend to LIVE 
WITH their dogs, not just have them in a pasture with livestock. Backyard 
breeders really do *know* and interact with their own dogs, they just don't 
know much about the breed in general.  BYBs are going to be much more likely 
to recognize, hence less likely to tolerate and less likely to breed, a poor 
temperament or a serious health problem than farm breeders are.  BYBs are 
also going to be much more in tune to the overall good health of their dogs, 
precisely because to the average BYB their breeding pair or their lone female 
are beloved family pets first and foremost.  BYBs are more likely to seek 
veterinary care and advice, more likely to notice if their dog has a tendency 
for chronic skin or ear infections, or is lame/limping, things along those 
lines, and hence I think probably BYBs are less likely to breed such if their 
veterinarian advises them not to. So I suppose the gist of what I'm saying is 
that *I think* BYBs actually turn out a better quality puppy in terms of 
health and temperament, and do so much less often, than the real commercial 
or make-a-buck farm breeders do and BYBs don't concern me all that much 
taking the whole big picture into account.

Who do I think is likely to become a BYB?  Well, not sure about the answer to 
that question, but I can tell you that in my experience, BYBs are more likely 
to accept education and to breed dogs more responsibly than farm breeders or 
true commercial breeders are.  BYBs do tend to have an emotional attachment 
and investment in what they are doing, and that is worth *something*.  They 
just generally aren't interested in showing dogs, but they do tend to *love* 
their dogs and take proper care of them at least.  They just haven't always 
taken the time to educate themselves on the breed, on genetics, on breeding 
properly.  I think with BYBs the issue is one of simple ignorance due to a 
lack of easily accessible educational materials sometimes.  They are simply 
too far removed from the network of resources they need to have access to.  
I've found that many so-called BYBs can be persuaded to do things differently 
if you take the time to work with them in a non-threatening, non-insulting, 
non-condescending manner.  Issuing ultimatums such as "neuter your animals 
and I might help educate you" is also not effective.  Now that doesn't mean I 
give these BYBs dogs from my program to breed, but if they are bound and 
determined to breed dogs anyway (which many are), turning our backs on them 
and our noses up to them doesn't help matters in the least.

I think you might find it interesting to note that many club-affiliated 
breeders started out as so-called BYBs, my husband and myself included. Our 
very first litter produced a decade or so ago was out of our own first two 
Pyrs, a male and female pair of pets, both basically acquired from BYBs.  We 
had no club contacts or network to rely on, no resources and education except 
for what we could glean from books and magazines.  On our own, without anyone 
having to tell us so, we did health clearances (OFA and CERF) on both sire 
and dam, we sought and provided exceptional veterinary care for parents and 
puppies, they were all fed the best premium dog food, pups were all wormed, 
vaccinated and vet checked before they went to new homes, pups were raised in 
our home with our children climbing in the whelping box and handling them 
from day one, and we placed each and every puppy in that litter on s/n 
contract with a written health guarantee and ongoing support and follow up.  
Interesting that we did CERFs back then of our own accord, yet once we got 
involved in the club network we were told "CERF is not necessary, Pyrs don't 
have eye problems."  Yet now, the health committee advises perhaps we should 
all be health screen our breeding stock's eyes.  Of course I will do it. It 
was my intention to do it in the first place, when I didn't know nuthin', 
simply because it made good common sense.

At that point in time when we bred our very first litter, we had no 
inclination towards nor intention of showing dogs.  As a matter of fact, my 
husband and I had gone to a few dog shows prior to breeding the litter to 
seek advice from breeders (since we had already decided we wanted to try 
breeding a litter) and we were very turned-off and offended by the 
condescending and rude attitude we got from those we were seeking advice and 
input from.  Because of that, we decided to forge our own way all alone and 
do things right as best as we could figure out with the resources and 
educational material we were able to get our hands on (which wasn't much 
comparatively to what I now know is available via the club networks).

As things turned out, we enjoyed breeding so much that we realized if we had 
any hope of improving on what we had, doing better than what we had done with 
our first litter in the way of type and conformation, that we pretty much had 
to bite the bullet and pay our dues by joining dog clubs and getting involved 
in the showing aspect, and that is exactly what we ended up doing. When our 
first litter was about 7 wks old, we called a fairly local contact person who 
was a club-affiliated Pyr breeder, her name given to us by the local all 
breed kennel club, and asked her to come to our home and evaluate our litter. 
 Thankfully, she didn't blow us off or give us the cold shoulder because we 
were backyard breeders.  She took the time to come over and visit for a few 
hours, and to give us a further education and more access to educational 
resources.  She managed to find a way to tell us "nicely", without offending 
us or putting us off or issuing ultimatums, that while our dogs appeared to 
be sound and healthy, and while we did go about things the right way and 
responsibly, that they were lacking in type and conformation and that likely 
no doors were going to be opened to us for further improvement if we did not 
become active in clubs and showing.

We partially followed her good advice.  We joined first the regional club and 
attended meetings, then the National club, and we neutered our male but did 
use our female for one more litter to a much nicer quality dog (and then she 
was spayed after that), and out of that second litter came probably the best 
dog we've ever bred, the closest to perfect outstanding temperament we've 
ever seen, and this puppy turned out to be our first champion, had one of the 
best showings at a National Specialty of anything we've ever bred, was a 
regional specialty Best of Opposite Sex winner, is OFA excellent, and she is 
the dam of the aforementioned therapy dog honored by the Iowa Veterinary 
Medical Association.  She was only bred that one time, by design.

I'm also quite grateful that the club-affiliated owner of that stud dog (her 
sire) took a chance on us and believed in us and trusted us and worked with 
us and educated us.  They have been dear friends of ours ever since.  Who 
knows how things may have turned out with us if neither of the two people 
mentioned had been willing to trust us and give us a chance to prove 
ourselves worthy as breeders?  Who knows if that doesn't happen all to often 
and if many new breeders end up going off in the wrong direction to begin 
with, simply because no one would give them some opportunities and a better 
education and a support network?

I understand the concept of using a broad brush approach to discouraging 
breeding, to preventing even more dogs from being bred, dogs that may be 
failed.  However, you have to understand and accept that some folks are 
determined to breed dogs anyway and will not be persuaded otherwise. Some of 
these folks might indeed be educable and can be taken under the wings of good 
breeders and taught to do things the right way.  By alienating those 
potential good breeders, those who might qualify, by basically denying them 
access to education and resources and a support network, we do nothing to 
ensure they set off on the right foot.  If anything, we may be sending them 
right off in the wrong direction to learn the wrong ways from the wrong role 
models.

It's a tough call to make, there is no denying that.

Kelley