Re: [HoE] Junker/Armor ?

["Steve Crow" <crow_steve@hotmail.com>]

>Steve,
>I was not trying to bash you, I was just pointing out that you seemed to be 
>less

Never got the impression that you were.  I can be a little...enthusiastic, 
but I found nothing rude in your response.  And I try to (hopefully) 
maintain civility as well.  Within those parameters, rip me a new one.  :)

>than pleased with the responses you got, and were complaining about the 
>system

Well keep in mind I never really _asked_ for "fixes" in the first place.  I 
only asked if my calculations were correct, and if people _thought_ this was 
a problem.  Not that I thought it was a problem (although obviously I 
implied there was from my point of view), or that I needed someone to 
propose a "fix" for me.

Granted, since then it's gone somewhat off the track as hypotheticals are 
defended, and I defended some hypotheticals and examined others in more 
detail.

>that allows junkers to build armor that was both better and less expensive 
>than
>the book price.
>I agree that there are some problems with that, but the suggestions that I 
>saw
>seemed to good answers to that.  (You are correct that JMC is not a RPG, 
>but is
>a sourcebook for one.)

Well, no offense, but with a couple of exceptions (duly noted, such as the 
Durability one), I guess I didn't find the suggestions to be that good.  
Well, "good," really isn't the word as much as "unworkable."

Now, your mileage may vary depending on the group of players (or the 
Marshal, if you're a player) that I have.  But I presented the problem, and 
most of the "fixes" to my group of players last night.  Like myself, they're 
hardened veterans with 10+ years and a lot of playtesting experience, and 
they...ummm, well let's just say if you thought my responses on-line here 
were impolitic, you should have seen their's!

Most of their responses were the same as mine, however.

>At any rate, if I came across as bashing, I wish to apologize as that was 
>not my
>intent. I still feel that you come across as less that grateful (which was 
>my
>point to start with)
>

No apology necessary.  It's hard to be grateful for something you didn't ask 
for, though!  Again check back to my original post and see what it is that I 
_did_ ask for.

But (and this may be a totally separate thread) I really have to wonder 
about the dynamics of other player groups out there.  The hundreds that I've 
worked with over the decades quite frankly wouldn't put up with some of the 
suggestions I've seen.

It's a common misconception that Gamemasters have the last word, but it's a 
false one.  GMs have only as much power as the players give them.  Yes, you 
the GM are expected to be the final word when it comes to deciding rules and 
stuff.  But abuse that, or use it inconsistently and without any kind of 
internal logic, and players will vote with their feet and you the GM will 
have the last word to an empty room.

The example given of the Junker building a full-body Iron Man-type armor 
suit, and his Marshal hosing him subsequently, strikes me as such an 
example.  That seems a perfect example to me of the "Penalize the player for 
supposedly try to abuse the rules" kind of thing.  Since the Marshal who did 
so is (presumably) not on-line here, this isn't an attack on the person who 
originally posted it.  But it's to my mind a perfect example of the 
"bwah-hah-hah" arbitrary Gamemaster.  If you've got a Marshal who does that 
kind of thing, IMO you've got worse probems than how much Junk-Armor costs.  
;)

That's also why, for instance, the whole "change the price" thing bothers me 
so much, and was on my list of top three pet-peeves.  Pinnacle provides the 
dollar "prices" as a guideline, and everything within that system 
(presumably) is built to adhere to that basic guideline.

Certainly, in a post-apocalyptic setting there are no "set prices."  But 
post-apocalyptic characters presumably _know_ what the base prices are, and 
can negotiate from that.  Once you start tinkering with that, it becomes so 
obviously arbitrary that the players I've had experience with become 
disgusted.  Particularly since if you're using it as a "fix," you've got to 
do it consistently, which makes it even _more_ obvious.  After the 20th time 
the party Junker sells his armor for only $132, but after he dies and the 
PCs try to get someone in Junkyard to buy the same thing and pay $1500 
(probably a reasonable cost vis a vis the suit's effectiveness compared to 
$750 Kevlar, albeit not one supported by the Junker rules).

Now, maybe there's a subtlety to doing this kind of thing that I haven't 
discovered in my years of GM'ing.  Or your players aren't as attuned to such 
thing as all of mine.  But nobody else here seems to be able to annuciate 
how to overcome this basic flaw.  And quite frankly, whether I whip off my 
mask and reveal myself to be Gary Gygax - RPG Designer(tm)!, or I'm Joe 
Blow, a GM two weeks into starting his first campaign, the facts remain the 
same on this.

Hope that clarifies things.  Again, my apologies to anyone I've offended.  
But again, keep in mind that just because I point out something that I think 
is wrong does not mean I'm trying to offend you.  Nor do I take it as a 
personal offense if someone points out to me that I'm wrong.

>-Steve


---

Steve Crow

"Worm Can Opener Extraordinare"

Check out my website at:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/

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