Re: [HoE] Junker/Armor ?

["Steve Crow" <crow_steve@hotmail.com>]

>Sorry, but I kind of have to butt in here.....
>
>              I'm a bit lost on the purpose of this debate.....I think I 
>lost
>it about 2 days ago...sorry.     Why pay a huge amount for something that 
>you

Originally, I asked if what I was working out calculation-wise was correct.  
I don't know that I really asked for a "fix" per se, but folks then started 
offering "fixes."  Most of which seemed to involve arbitrarily hiking up 
prices, while overlooking the fact that the _baseline_ price appeared to be 
broken.

The closest other suggestion to a real "fix" was that you take Durability 
into account.  An intriguing suggestion, but it was a bit unclear (at least, 
from the initial comments) on how to implement it.


>can make much, much more cheaply?       Well, of course, you wouldn't.     
>Is

Made or bought.  My original question concerned the group going to Junkyard. 
  Maybe a lot of folks haven't read Iron Oasis yet, but Junkers, components, 
and Junk-devices are fairly prevalent there.

>one better than the other?     Of course.     But several things come to 
>mind
>to this ole southern boy.     First off...using the examlpe of the
>"vest"....wheather it's taken off of a dead Black Hat, found in the ruins
>somewhere or built by the resident / local / searched out Junker, a head 
>shot
>still cures all your ills!

Sure, which just demonstrates another way the AV-2 Body Suit is a bit 
better, since it gives you head protection.

>              Also...... as far as the "rules of creation - Junker volume" 
>are
>concerned, I admit..... when I first say them, I hated them more than any
>Earthly language can express.     But as I read and RE-read them, they kind
>of grew on me.     So I have to say that if the problem is the rules per
>se..... I can only give an example from a situation in 'our' HOE campaign.
>  Our resident Junker wanted to build the Junker / HOE equilivent of Iron 
>Man
>armor.     You know the kind.....protection from head to toe, as many 
>gizmos
>and gagdets as he could cram into it.     After thought and deliberation, 
>the
>game marshall decided that if he had the proper powers for what he wanted 
>to
>do, and it all checked out rules-wise, she'd ok it.     He was happier than
>any gamer has a right to be about a GM call.     Problem he ran into
>was.....he couldn't SEE out of the thing!     Well.....after he got the 
>power
>Sensor....he jumped for joy again..... then he realized he wouldn't be able
>to breath in it.     He's still working on a Life Support power.

Unfortunately, that to me is really where the Junker rules break down - with 
all the niggling stuff that you have to put in.  For instance, how many 
folks worry about putting in headlights (via the Light power) when designing 
vehicles (Locomotion)?  What about life support for planes flying at high 
(or not so high) altitudes?  Granted, most of these probably don't come up 
(how often do posses drive at night?).  And yet, I bet a lot of folks, when 
they picture any vehicle, kinda of mentally attach all the bells and 
whistles.

I'd have to admit, in the example above, that seems a bit extreme.  There is 
no Hole-Punching power, which is all that would seem to be required.  In 
fact, the Marshal seems to be assuming that the armor gives certain benefits 
that are _not_ inherent in the power.  I certainly wouldn't give someone an 
airtight, gasproof Armor suit unless they _did_ use some kind of Life 
Support power.  In this case, the Marshal in question seems to be assuming 
it _is_ airtight (and thus gas-proof) without the use of any such power.

I might penalize for peripheral vision.  Although regular helmets would do 
that as well and nobody seems worried about that - again, consistency 
doesn't seem to be watchword here.

>              What's all this have to do with the thread here?      Just 
>that
>yes.....the Arcane Background powers and abilities ARE better than the more
>'mundane' things.     That's the nature of the games.     Now all of this 
>is
>my own humble (and usually warped) opinion, but there it is.     Junker 
>stuff
>SHOULD be cheaper than regular stuff.....it IS junk after all and LOOKS 
>like

Hmmm.  Actually (and depending on how you work out the cost) it costs about 
the same.  If you build a motorcycle and take the total # of components and 
multiply by 12 (that's what I use as a constant in my case), you get about 
what a list-price motorcycle "costs."  Ditto for a car, or a gun, or a 
walkie-talkie, or whatever.

Armor seems to be the aberration here.

>cobbled together junk at that.     Doomies SHOULD be able to flash fry most
>thingswith a wave of their hands.     Sykers SHOULD be .....well..... 
>that's

And Junkers can and should (normally) make stuff without having to find a 
handy-dandy store or perform massive scavenging, and build it at "cost."

>the thought progression.     If I've totally missed the line in this
>thread....again please forgive.     But like the PEG folks say all the
>time.....it's your game...change it.

There were several threads as the original question branched off in 
different directions.  However, as I always say :) the fact that a Marshal 
can change anything isn't an excuse for a poorly-conceived or designed rule.

Plus, the Armor rules are a subset of an overall set of rules (Junker 
design) into which it fits closely and integrally.  You can hike component 
costs, but then you have to do it consistently which impacts other Powers.  
You can arbitrarily play around with TNs and Stability and what-not, but it 
is part of an overall system and this can be tricky to do without rebuilding 
the entire system.

You can, of course, make whatever _arbitrary_ changes you want.  But in my 
experience, gamemasters who come across as arbitrary rarely go far.

>              I'll go back to my quiet lil corner now.......
>Later Days
>Reb
>("In every world, every dimension, every Plane of Existence...I AM the 
>REBEL!
>[X])


---

Steve Crow

"Worm Can Opener Extraordinare"

Check out my website at:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/

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