Re: [HoE] Iron Oasis

[PEGShane@aol.com]

Hoo-whee! I haven't seen this much traffic on something since the great slave 
debate in Deadlands.

Okay. Well, let me set a few things straight. I'll do my own thing, then 
answer some of CrazyDan's text immediately after.

My former partners decided that Iron Oasis was going to be a book. 
Personally, I would have made it a boxed set. It's THE central campaign 
setting for HOE, and I think it should have been. But that was a decision I 
was basically overruled on long ago.

Now, in general, the boxed sets are a wash with books. We sell less, but we 
get a higher price. So you'll see a few. Denver is the only one in 2000 we 
decided really needed to be a box. The Shattered Coast set will more likely 
feature lots of small maps of cool locations rather than one massive (and 
truthfully useless map).

We do wind up spending a couple extra thousand on the maps and "nickel 
novels" in the boxed sets, but again--well worth it IF they deliver the 
content we want. Again, in truth, IO should have been a boxed set. But it's 
not, and we all gotta live with it. Everything after the February releases 
was decided by me and our Brand Managers (Goff and Hopler). I'll take more 
responsibility for those. Previous decisions came with baggage I don't care 
to get into.

As for a map online, we'll see. My one production guy (Zeke) should have an 
assisstant next month. This guy will be taking over the webpage, and will be 
able to do some more specialized things (we've got great things planned that 
you won't believe--but it takes a LOT of work to get them done when poor Zeke 
is shackled to his desk in diapers coloring 600 and some Cardstock Cowboys).

Now let's talk about Crazy Dan. Most of you can skip this. Those of you who 
are interested in the game biz will find this interesting (I own a store as 
well as PEG, so I know whereof I speak in the following diatribe. . .)

In a message dated 1/17/00 7:37:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, CrazyDan@aol.com 
writes:

<< Subj:     Re: [HoE]  Iron Oasis
 Date:  1/17/00 7:37:36 PM Eastern Standard Time
 From:  CrazyDan@aol.com
 Sender:    owner-hoe@gamerz.net
 Reply-to:  hoe@gamerz.net
 To:    hoe@gamerz.net
 
 I recall an article I read somewhere abouts a few months back that actually 
 took a look at the actual amount of profit a game company makes from its 
 books.  This isn't the industry to get rich in -- rather, it's probably one 
 of the businesess that is farthest from.  There are mega-success stories 
 (FASA, TSR, WoTC), but most companies subsist on a love of the games than on 
 financial prosperity.  It's like the question of choosing to get paid 
 substantially for a job you hate or getting just enough money it takes to 
get 
 comfortably by and do a job you love.  That's what the gaming business is 
 really about.

First, FASA does not fit into the TSR, WOTC category. I love those guys, but 
we actually beat them most months in gross sales (at least those reported by 
Comics Retailer). They probably don't have the back debt we do though, and 
Battletech has always been a very solid and constant performer from them. The 
computer games were nice one time "cash runs" as well.
 
 Getting back to the article...  Let's say Iron Oasis WAS a 30-dollar boxed 
 set.  That's the price on retail store shelves, where many of the games that 
 are sold are finally purchased.  Now when the store owner is ordering the 
 game from the distributor, the price paid is generally half that of the 
 retail price.  So Joe's Amazing Game Store orders one copy of Iron Oasis, 
and 
 after it sits on their shelf for a bit, they make 15 dollars.  The retailers 
 are maki the most amount of money off of this sale as they are not selling 
as 
 much quantity, and it takes up valuable shelf space, which can be used to 
 promote other products as well.  A game store on a slow day could make only 
a 
 couple hundred dollars, which has to go towards the employment, rent, 
 utilities, management, and not to mention the owner getting his fair share 
of 
 the revenue to support his/her family.

Stores generally pay 44-50% of the cover price. Our store makes anywhere from 
$300 to $1500 in a day (comics and Pokemon leagues are the big days).
 
 Let's go to the distributor, Stan's Gaming Supply.  Stan agreed to buy 
 several hundred copies of Iron Oasis directly from PEG once they were 
 printed.  Again, there is about a 50% knock-down in price here from what the 
 product will later be sold for, so now they're buying it for about 8$, 
 roughly.  Distributors are consistenly getting orders at their warehouses, 
 and space isn't as much of a concern, as unpopular titles can go sit in a 
far 
 back corner for God-only-knows-how-long, and not get in the way of 
day-to-day 
 operations.  More products move through the distributors, so they can afford 
 to make less than the retailers per unit, but still come out ahead with 
gross 
 profit.
 
Distributors get 60% off the cover price. If you pay $20, we get $8. We also 
pay the shipping (usually around 10%--call it $100 per book). Our print costs 
on a sourcebook are about $1.50 when we're not getting hosed. If we make 
mistakes and have to fix low-res art in bluelines (the final proofs they send 
before the printing begins), it winds up costing an extra grand or so.

We pay our artists $100 per full page of art. 128 page sourcebooks have 20 
pages of art (total). That's $2000. Over a print run of 4000 books, that's 
another $2 per book. That's $3.50 per book we make. Besides the above costs 
we have to:

do payroll
pay taxes, retirement plans, health insurance, our accountant
pay rent
pay UPS (books ain't cheap to ship, friends)
pay the artists
pay off several grand per month in back debt and loans
and of course there's always something that comes up and bites you in the 
tuckas for a couple extra grand per month (a no-prize to whoever finds the 
proper way to spell tuckas)

We also wind up paying out about $8K for Origins, around $12K for GenCon; we 
give out several thousand dollars of merchandise in convention prizes; 

 The guys who make the least amount of money per unit then, would seem to be 
 the manufacturer.  And they have to cover production costs, advertising, 
 writers' artists' fees, and more expenses, depending on how complex their 
 organization is.  It's kind of a rip-off, but that's how it works.  However, 
 when you buy direct, that generally puts a nice chunk o' change in their 
 pockets in comparison to the average sale.
 
 So for $8, Pinnacle would have to make a book, which probably cost $3 to 
 print and bind per copy alone, then figure in their other costs for the 
 writers, artists, editors, etc.  Extras cost even more money.  Like maps.
 
 Pinnacle has produced some nifty stuff in the past, but that was during 
their 
 partnership with AEG.  They had a bit more financial leeway.  Now, they 
can't 
 afford to lose the extra sales losses they might incur if they made it a 
 boxed set.  Many people can't justify spending the extra 10 bucks when they 
 can get another product cheaper.  And since PEG isn't getting any extra 
money 
 to finance a nice full-color-pull-out-glossy map, they simply can't put one 
 in.  I'm sure they'd love to, but would you risk your entire job and company 
 to give some people "freebies?" (Not to mention that some of these people 
 feel that such a thing would not be a gift, but rather it is entitled to 
 them?)

Yes and no. Let's leave AEG out of it. We're doing just fine. And profit 
margin doesn't depend too much on how much you have in the bank. The maps 
just aren't real cost -effective when the book is already 144 pages (Hopler 
has diarhea of the keyboard sometimes ;)). We'd have to charge $30 and 
there'd be a revolt. They'd start dumping Deadlands tea in the harbor or 
something.
 
 They put cool free stuff online every once in a while.  Maybe they'll put it 
 up.  Maybe it'll be a cool promotional little freebie they might have at 
 GenCon.  Or maybe we could actually get into the spirit of the game and 
 simply use our imaginations to craft our own visions of Junkyard?  Every 
game 
 is a posse's own, and no two games will ever be alike.  Gaming isn't about 
 precise city architecture, abiding by every rule in the book, or even about 
 cool do-dads that come with a product... it's about getting together with a 
 group and having fun.  So let's get some zen going on that then, eh?

And you guys always say how useless our maps are anyway. ;)

 
 Oh, and about that Templar-killing-Stone thing...  That's just --- woah... 
0_o

Yeah. About that. I think it's cool! Sure, it's going to cause some problems 
when we do the Stone thing in HOE (and yes, he is coming!), but if you're 
going to off him, that was a way cool way to do it! And though the way he 
came back (as a manitou) doesn't quite fit the standard rules, it's very 
cool--and the Reckoners ARE near God=like.

Shanester