Re: Black Hats Kevlar (was Re: [HoE] [Hopler] EMP vs. Black Hats)

[Steve Crow <crow_steve@hotmail.com>]

> > Like I noted, I just have a problem with a group fighting 20 Black Hats 
>and
> > walking away with...15,000 "dollars" in goods.  Granted, BHs are 
>tough...but
> > are they real worth that big an award?
>
>Either you or your players are still thinking in terms of gold pieces, 
>methinks.
>Economics doesn't work that way. Especially in HOE where most commerce is 
>based
>on barter.
>

That is how the HoE rulebook "values" things for the purposes of purchasing, 
barter, use of the Belongins' and Dinero Edges, etc.  It's also, quite 
frankly, an easier system that lets you get that kind of thing out of the 
way and move on to role-playing.

>Ok, so they've got $15000 worth of kevlar vests. It's only worth what they 
>can
>TRADE for it.  You can't go down to Monty Haul's Dungeon Exchange and get 
>the
>value in cash.
>

That's understood, and why in the past I've put "dollars" in quotation 
marks.

>So they show up in the nearest town with a huge load of Kevlar vests. Turns 
>out
>a convoy just went through, unloaded several hundred vests already, and
>everybody's got 2 or 3 to spare. Nobody will even look at the vests, much 
>less
>trade for one.
>

So you're suggesting an artificial and arbitrary limit?  And let me guess - 
if the players showed up in the town a week later, having lost their kevlar 
vests one way or another, everyone of those vests that formed the original 
glut would now be gone, and the players would have to expect to barter for 
new vests at something close to the book "price" or higher, right?  And of 
course, a week later, the glut returns, and so on, and so on.

Yes, the "prices" in the rulebook are guideline approximates - that is 
understood.  But guidelines also mean your players probably hope to get 
_approximately_ that amount.  A system of, "If you sell it, it's worth next 
to nothing - if you're trying to buy it, expect to "pay" book value or 
higher" was not what I understood the rulebook to be trying to convey.

>Or, better yet, nobody in the town has kevlar vests, because they're smart
>enough to realize next time Throckmorton's goons roll through and they see 
>the
>entire town outfitted with kevlar vests, then that means the town or 
>somebody
>friendly to the town wiped out a bunch of black hat patrols, so now their
>buddies decide to kill everyone and burn the town to the ground. Don't you 
>think
>that many vests is pretty much a huge flaming "kill me now" sign to other 
>black
>hats?
>

A few flaws there.  First of all, it's already been noted that the kevlar is 
scavenged - are you suggesting the BHs have a policy of going around and 
destroying towns that have _any_ Kevlar Vests in large qualities?

Define "huge" - we're only talking 20.

Ummm, read the stuff on Black Hats - they don't torch and kill large amounts 
of anything most of the time.  They go around collecting tribute (whether 
they need it or not).  The occasional town as an example, okay, sure - but 
if they do that for every town that has 20 Kevlar Vests I suspect the Wasted 
West is going to look a lot more...wasted.  ;)

And if you're proposing "gluts" to devalue players' goods, that accentuates 
the problem even more.  "Gee it's odd how after we got those 20 vests, every 
town we went to said they had a glut of them and wouldn't give us anything 
for them...and a week later each town we doubled back to had been sacked by 
Black Hats and the townsfolk crucified.  Was it something we said?"

>Break your players of the idea that if they've got a lot of stuff or if the
>rulebook says its worth a certain price then it ought to be worth 
>something.
>This is the post-apocalypse, after all... people will only pay for stuff 
>they
>can use, and they'll only offer something they can live without.


Certainly neither I nor the players expect them to be able to roll in to a 
town with 100 kevlar vests and get full (or even a substantial) value on 
them.  We're talking about the results of one battle, with one squad of BHs, 
with maybe 20 vests.  15,000 "dollars" is enough to set most groups up 
pretty comfortably.

And as I noted, it's the rulebook that conveys the idea that stuff is worth 
a certain "price."  Granted, these should be considered guideline 
approximates (heck, they were in Deadlands and we never stuck to those, 
either), and I've never been hesitant to over/under charge to a certain 
degree.  But HoE is not (hopefully) "Supply & Demand - the RPG."  Kevlar is 
very much "stuff you can use".

As long as "money" pays for stuff, and the players need stuff to survive and 
defeat the Fearmongers, then they're going to want to have something 
approximating a consistent series of guidelines.

The problem, IMO, is that you can kill plenty of groups of 20 whatevers and 
get nothing (Raiders, Trogs, whatever).  But you have BHs who you kill 20 
of, and hey presto, you've got 15,000 "dollars" (approximate, rough 
guideline, whatever) of stuff.

Now, your mileage may vary, but it seems to me that rather than impose a 
consistently arbitrary "glut" system to devalue stuff (such a system won't 
mean much unless _every_ town the players go to refuses to trade - otherwise 
they'll just eventually find a town that does)...

...or an arbitrary "Ha, your [milrats are contaminated]/[vehicle is blown up 
before you can do anything]/[newly traded-for guns are all defective] 
Marshall decision (that gets real old when used often)...

...the problem should be dealt with at the root.  Thus my "rigged" Kevlar 
suggestion.

---

Steve Crow

"Worm Can Opener Extraordinare"

Check out my website at:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/


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