Re: [[HoE] Re: Use of stats (was Revised Edition)]

["Steve Crow" <crow_steve@hotmail.com>]

>Just responding to Gwydion & Steve Crow:
>
>I think everything Gwydion brought up is absolutely right! I don't know 
>about
>your games Steve, but I try to keep combat down to a bare minimum for mine. 
>I
>only introduce it at a climax or if there is a very good reason for it 
>(such
>as a group of thugs being caught by the posse and not feeling very
>cooperative). I try to keep my stories involved with more of a mystery
>element, requiring my posse to solve the clues which let them find the 
>villain
>or Fearmonger. This has allowed me to have sessions where there is 
>absolutely
>no combat in them, which is something I like, and my players LOVE all the 
>fate
>chips they're able to get for roleplaying, and I love increasing my 
>standards
>for good roleplaying :)
>

We don't necessarily have a lot of combat either, and we've had plenty of 
sessions with no combat whatsoever.

However, a few things to keep in mind - your mileage may vary.  None of this 
is a criticism of HoE per se - merely observations of its strengths and 
weaknesses.

1) My players are good role-players and enjoy it...but they also enjoy good 
fights and combat.  Thus, "minimizing" combat would not be what my players 
want.

2) As with most RPGs, relatively large parts of the rules are devoted 
to...well, combat.  The question here to me isn't necessarily what a 
individual GM can do with the rules provided (that's kind of a given), but 
what the rules themselves encourage and say.

3) In HoE, it's a hostile world.  The rules reflect that.  There are very 
few provisions for, say, role-playing your way out of an encounter with 
Black Hats or Doombringers ("the Joker on crack" is not something you can 
typically deal with on a interactive nature ;) ).  In some cases the system 
acutally goes out of its way to deprive you of role-playing solutions.  Want 
to infiltrate a Black Hat squadron and have a few rounds of Disguise roles, 
Persuasion, possible lack of knowledge that may give you away?  Forget 
that...

4) HoE is not a setting that encourages mysteries and investigation.  While 
role-playing is certainly possible in the setting (no system makes it 
impossible), it's not one that heavily encourages it either.  I'm not saying 
this is a bad thing, but it does mean that role-playing is occasionally 
de-emphasized by the rules themselves.  HoE has other strengths.  Other 
games that emphasize roleplaying more have weaknesses that Hoe lacks.  
Ideally, HoE should shore up its weaknesses.

5) Solving clues to figure out a Fearmonger's weakness is all well and good, 
but the majority of creatures listed in HoE and Deadlands materials to date 
do not include that option.  The rulebook doesn't provide role-playing ways 
to deal with Dogs o' War or Shraks or Lurkers or Bloodwolfs.

6) More specifically on "mysteries":  You're limited by what your players 
_want_ to do.  If they built combat-types (or even simply characters that 
have neither the smarts or patience to search for clues, solve mysteries, 
etc. - just because a Huckster is Curious doesn't mean they want to step 
into the role of Nancy Drew) despite your warning and/or their knowledge of 
the setting, you can consider that a warning from them that what you want 
may be what they abhor.  Your "mystery" or role-playing scenarios are either 
going to have to force them to play out of character and become detectives 
(so much for role-playing), or you'll get a good chuckle (although those 
that stay with you won't) because their characters died becuse they couldn't 
deal with that Fearmonger.

If you have players who like that kind of thing, great.  Not everyone does.

7) Solving mysteries is not "role-playing" any more than combat is.  
Typically such mysteries boil down to either A) the character making skill 
rolls to simulate investigation - no more role-playing than making 
skill/trait rolls to shoot people, or B) the players having to step _way_ 
out of character.  When you construct a mystery (and I've done plenty) you 
have to build a mystery that a 20th century player can solve based on his 
experiences and knowledge, regardless of the setting.

Now, if you're running a 20th century Spy campaign in "our" reality or a 
close equivalent, that's great.  But if you write a mystery that a player, 
_in character_ can solve in 2094, then you're going to end up either having 
them stare at you blankly ("How was I supposed to know Grimme's body 
disappeared in 2050?"), or you're giving them notes that inevitably point to 
the mystery's solution ("Hey, we're looking for a servant of Famine and the 
Marshal just told me that Grimme's body disappeared in 2050 - you think it 
means something?") or you're reduced to die-rolling.

Again, there are ways around all of this.  But HoE's futuristic setting is a 
hindrance in some cases.  I could rewrite/ignore rules.  But if I'm going to 
do that...why should I buy (or continue to buy and support) HoE?

The combat system tends to emphasize "roll"-playing as well.  Geez, if you 
shoot someone successfully with one bullet, there are...3-6 die rolls to 
resolve (roll to hit, location, normal damage, possible Vamoose, possible 
Wind, possible Stun Recovery).

Overall, I'm not saying these factors are _bad_ things.  But I do think it's 
a combination of a lot of these factors that mean that if your players enjoy 
combat _as well as_ role-playing, to simply say, "I try to keep combat down 
to a bare minimum" can be kinda unrealistic.  If that works for you, great.  
Although personally, I wouldn't choose HoE, as it currently exists, if 
minimum combat and lots of role-playing are what either I or my players had 
in mind.

But we do think A) the combat could be simplified a bit, B) non-combat 
Traits and Coordinations could be emphasized, and C) this would lead to a 
game that is more role-playing oriented.

Oh well, enough rambling.  Dice at will.  ;)

---

Steve Crow

"Worm Can Opener Extraordinare"

Check out my website at:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/


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