Re: [HoE] Re: Use of stats (was Revised Edition)

["Steve Crow" <crow_steve@hotmail.com>]

>In a reply to an earlier post Steve Crow wrote...
>
><<
> > I would have cited non-combat uses of straight Strength, Cognition, and
> > Quickness Traits, but none exist.  Which is part of the problem.
> >
> > The only non-combat Vigor check is for Rad poisoning, which is more
> > appropriate to HoE than Deadlands, so I avoided mentioning it.
> >
> > However, combat is again relevant because every player has to make a
> > Quickness check _every round_ of combat.  There are far less Persuasion
> > attempts (involving Mien, unskilled or not) in any given game session 
>that
> > we have ever run or seen run.
> >
> > To take another example, even if I felt comfortable with letting a
>character
> > make unskilled Knowledge checks for _every_ Area the character ever
>entered,
> > or wanted information on every Area he might choose to ask me about, 
>there
> > are far less rolls required or wanted by the characters then there are 
>for
> > Quickness in combat.>>
>
>If you can't cite examples of stat usage out of combat, maybe you should
>stress the roleplaying more.  Strength is used for things like carrying 
>heavy


Of course, almost all of the things cited below are not "roleplaying" any 
more or less than combat is "roleplaying."  We do lots of roleplaying in 
combat.

However, when I meant that "none exist," I meant that none exist in the 
rulebook.  If the rulebook only cites combat-type examples of using base 
statistics, then we're left with the impression that's what they're intended 
for.

>loads, lifting wagons off of people, arm wrestling, and bending horseshoes.
>Cognition is used to spot things as you walk by such as that mysterious
>figure who seems to be always watching you, or to note that the symbol 
>worked
>into the bricks of that building match the one on the rings of those 
>cultists
>who tried to kill you last night.  Quickness is used anytime you need to do
>something in a hurry, like some complex sleight of hand that the normal 
>skill
>doesn't cover by itself or rigging a deadfall to catch that *thing* that's
>been chasing you all night.
>
>Vigor is used for resisting poisons and disease, as well as representing
>endurance.  Someone with a 3d12 in Vigor can go without food for a lot 
>longer
>than someone with 3d4.  Vigor is also used in figuring Wind and Strain.  
>Mien

And of course, Wind and Strain are basically used in...combat.

>is a general indication of your character's appearance and demeanor -- even
>without persuasion, having a high Mien is better than a low one.  Someone
>with a high Mien stat may stutter and fumble over themselves when talking 
>to
>a pretty girl, but someone with a low Mien is going to need a Persuasion 
>roll
>just to get her to talk to them.  Knowledge could be used to allow a
>character to remember some obscure fact or some bit of history the 
>character
>would know but the player might not.
>
>

Wouldn't most of the above fall into unskilled Persuasion/Area 
Knowledge/Academia rolls?  I think the fact that the current system leaves 
this a little vague (it's basically "Pick whichever you want," isn't it?) 
may be part of the confusion newbies have.

In any case, I never said that base Coordinations (the Vigor die-type is not 
a Coordination by the way) couldn't be used.  Only that by the very nature 
of combat, some base Coordinations get much more frequent use because A) You 
get more combat, and B) the system provides Skills that you use in lieu of 
base Knowledge or Mien.  The system does not provide a Skill to use in lieu 
of Quickness for initiative checks, or Cognition to avoid Surprise going in 
to combat.


>  >>A double barrel shotgun CAN rip hell at close range, that's why the 
>U.S.
>  >>Marines use it every chance they can.
>
>  >Which is interesting, and I wasn't disputing it's power vis a vis a
>  >real-life comparison.  That doesn't necessarily make it desirable in a
>  >role-playing game.  A weapon that is substantially more powerful than 
>many
>  >others will become the weapon of choice, denying variety.
>
>  >You can, of course, impose artificial limits on the use of a superior
>  >weapon, but it would be better if the game system addresses this.  Which
>  >they had (by making a DB Shotgun a ROF 2 Speed _2_ weapon in HoE), I
>  >thought...
>
>In HOE, having a shotgun and having *shells* for the shotgun are two
>different things.  Also, a double barrelled (DB) shotgun is hell-on-wheels

Well, first of all, the D-B Shotgun was changed for HoE, so the problems 
noted exist only for Deadlands.  Ironically, the (we assume) futuristic D-B 
Shotgun of HoE was actually weakened.  Unless it reverts back to a Speed 1 
weapon (either optionally in Waste Warriors, or officially down the road).

So raising concerns or "solutions" about the DBS in HoE is a moot point 
right now.  However, since Jeff talked about it in HoE terms, I'll keep the 
discussion on those terms.

The restriction suggested applies to any weapon in HoE.  Unless, again, as 
Marshal you want to impose artificial limits (i.e., "Oh, yeah, you find 100 
rounds for your SMG but 1 shell for your DB-Shotgun."

>*once* and then has to be reloaded.  Even with the weapon speeds being
>eliminated, you still have the problem of putting fresh shells in the gun 
>--
>and that's assuming the target is affected by it.  And even if you take 
>down
>one zombie with it his thirty buddies are still there.  An

Hmm.  First of all, it's not clear whether you can use both blasts of a 
shotgun on two different targets.  The implication seems to be that you can, 
since you make two different shooting rolls.  So mark off two Zombies.  The 
same "solutions" again applies to most weapons.  Rest assured that a 
character with a decent Quickness and the appropriate Quick Load/Shotgun can 
reload and shoot again, to the point that they're putting out as much damage 
as, say a person with a 3d6-8 pistol and 6-9+ rounds.

overpowering
>weapon is only overpowering in the circumstances it is designed for.  If
>someone is standing on the cliff above you dropping rocks, that shotgun 
>isn't
>going to help much.  Lastly, smart foes will recognize the danger of a


Neither is _any_ ranged weapon going to help under those circumstances.  The 
Deadlands game (and most games, come to that) emphasize _close_ combat.  You 
have more options, basically.  HTH types (particularly in HoE who wish to 
conserve bullets), Doomsayers and Sykers who rely on touch and/or 
line-of-sight, etc.

That's not to say that _every_ combat should be at close range.  However, 
one Doomsayer with Nuke can quickly end most combat at longer ranges.  In 
close combat, Nuke becomes relatively useless...but then the D-B Shotgun 
takes over.

>shotgun and target that character first.  I've heard that in WWII the 
>bazooka
>was frequently given to the new guys because the veterans knew it drew 
>extra
>fire.
>

So we're agreeing that the DBS is overly dangerous?  Okay...  The solution 
proposed works unless, of course, everyone who lacks other heavy/fire-power 
stuff (I'm thinking Templars and MIRV-armed Doomsayers here, for instance) 
uses DBSs.

Don't get me wrong - the DB Shotgun is an equalizer here.  The problem is 
that it's an equalizer that makes it superior to many other firearms.

>Jeff


---

Steve Crow

"Worm Can Opener Extraordinare"

Check out my website at:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/


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