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Re: [DL] Deadlands Reboot 2004 [Shane]


On Sunday, July 27, 2003, at 05:05 PM, Michael Sprague wrote:
Chuckle, I pretty much agree. Fantasy Setting = D&D? I don't think so!
There are many Fantasy Game Systems out there, and D&D, while the most
popular is _far_ from the best rules system.

In an effort to hose this conversation down before the flames start, this is Michael's opinion, right Michael? Right?

I started with D&D way back when. But the rules, while pretty good for when
they were created, really sucked once you got past the "this is really neat"
phase. AD&D and AD&D 2nd ed. fixed some of the problems, but I still found
them frustrating and not worth playing. There were such better rules out
there, which I converted the good D&D adventures (there are plenty of bad
ones) to systems I liked. Around four or five years ago, I was talked into
playing D&D again ... after not playing it for over 10 years). And with a
really good group of people. I lasted almost a year ... mostly due to the
good gamers in the group ... but the rules (2nd ed.) finally drove me away,
and I have not played it since.

By my math that would have been around the time when 2nd edition really started to be kind of like Elvis in his later days. Fat, bloated, and very different from where it came from. 2nd Edition was the first RPG I really owned and had noticeable support for. with the possible exception of the old Palladium TMNT game. The later incarnations of 2nd edition were quite different,, as many players seemed to consider everything that wasn't specifically setting-specific to be canon, so you had a pretty big blender of base rules, add-on books of varying quality, supplements, optional rulebooks, etc. It's important to remember that in the early 90s, I think the TSR release schedule for a good year would rival the entire Deadlands line in quantity...

I took a quick look at the new d20 rules when they came out. While in
general, they look much better than the old rules, they only caught D&D up
to the mid 80's - early 90's when compared other gaming systems.

I think d20 is a good system... for certain kinds of games. it's funny, though. A LOT of Dungeons and Dragons 3rd Edition is there purely for nostalgia value. There's the hardcore gamers, the type who post on mailing lists and forums, and there's a large group of people who wouldn't play an RPG if you payed them. There's a middle ground, though, and a number of those played once or twice in middle school, 'grew out of it' and moved on. But if a few of them get grabbed back in by 3rd edition, possibly by some of their old friends whoa re hardcore gamers, a few of them will 'stick' realizing that RPGs can be a perfectly normal and fun 'adult' hobby, a way for a bunch of friends to get together. That's the ones d20 grabs.

It's good for the industry as a whole either way.

From inspection, the d20 designers wanted to move beyond some elements of the old D&D but couldn't... Look at attribute scores. They are pretty close to worthless in this edition, as it's the modifier that's important. Without the need for a feeling of backward compatibility, the d20 system could have borrowed from Silhouette and identifed stats as 0 (average), +1 (better), -1 (worse), etc.

Considering the number of 'retro' supplements they've released, WotC knows how nostalgia can sell, and hopes it sells to both us 'addicted' gamers and those who don't have a gaming monkey on their back.

I think Roger's statement about "Gamers like what they know" explains why
D&D is still so popular. As a rules system, it should have died years ago.
Like Clint though, I like what I like. I have Evernight ... but had it been
written for D&D (d20 or otherwise), I would probably not have bothered to
pick it up.

I'm not buying Evernight. I want to see 50 Fathoms for any expanded ship rules and related edges/flaws, and Necessary Evil (Is the full title actually Clint Black's Necessary Evil, or just NE?) just for coolness.

I don't buy d20 books unless I really have a good reason. The last I bought was a D&D 3e Monster Manual, and that was because it was under $15 on sale...