Re: [DL] Martial Arts balance

[The Baron Samedi <baron11@netmcr.com>]

>Let me apologize for the angry tone this message may
>take in advance, but this is something I feel pretty
>strongly about.

OK.

Let me say I am telling it like it is with the old and new PEG system.  It 
looks like your Marshal has modified it a great deal, but then I am not 
hearing him tell it, am I?

>Does anyone else consider the martial artists overly
>powerful, new system or old???  Let me set the stage
>here a bit, and then I'll give you my systemic
>reasons.

Yes and No.

>Maggie and her friends make it to Milwaukee to deliver
>the news of a former party member's death to his
>sister.  Now, when I think of Milwaukee, I don't think
>of martial artists, I think of breweries.  Granted,
>with Iron Dragon, I probably should have, but that's
>not the point.

OK

>The posse is in a second story hotel room planning
>their next move, when Maggie hears a groan coming from
>downstairs.  Those of you who have seen "Dead Man"
>know where my mind went; in fact, it was a group of 9
>"yeller men" beating up on a single male.  Five Geese,
>bless his Bear Totem heart, leaps out the window to
>save the guy; Alexandra, Maggie, Doctor Reed and
>Professor Jackson bolt down the stairs to join the
>fray.  Seeing as how this is a rather large Northern
>city with an anti-gun carrying ordinance, the party
>leaves the pea shooters behind.

OK


>To make a long story short, Thorn Fingers Win makes
>chop suey of Five Geese.  Marguerite the player has
>very little systemic knowledge of martial arts; we're
>not allowed to build a character with them and haven't
>read even the rules about them.  Thorn Fingers not
>only used a maneuver which, as a *vamoose*, knocked
>Five Geese on his butt,

was this "Throw"?

>but then proceeded to use some
>lightening-looking ch'i power which did non-chippable
>damage to the tune of a Critical to the head (the GM
>admits by all rights Five Geese should have been
>dead).

OK, that is not in the old or new book.  There is a power called "Flying 
Guillotine" which does 5 non-chippable to the head, but that is dodgeable, 
obvious, costly, and has nothing to do with Lightning.  (it is 
non-chippable as it literally clean cuts the head off.  5 wounds is 
basically saying clean cut)

>This is practically ignoring four other goons who laid
>into Maggie (who had no clue that not interrupting the
>one-on-one combat between Thorn Fingers and Five Geese
>was honorable, and therefore made her the best
>target), and one who almost took off Professor
>Jackson's head with a flying kick, but who's botched
>roll and resulting broken patella will be keeping him
>quite busy.

right

>Okay, there's the scene.  Granted, our characters are
>not supremely good at hand-to-hand combat (most of us
>have a brawlin' of 2 or 3), but Five Geese was no
>slouch with that tomahawk, and didn't land a single
>attack.

can't really comment.

>Here's my systemic problem with martial artists:
>
>First, it's cheap and clean.  I learned from the GM
>that "martial arts" itself if a one point Edge, where
>as the Arcane Background which gives the character
>access to ch'i is the standard 3.

OK, according to the main rules, Martial Arts Training is a 3 point edge, 
and Enlightened (chi powers) is 2 of old system, 3 for new.
They also have to buy several aptitudes.

>   Here's what kicks
>me in the head: no backlash, no roll, no gear or ammo,
>no nothing: they're bare handed COMBAT MANEUVERS.
The old ones have no Backlash.  The New Ones do.
The Old Ones always roll something, either Fighten': Martial Arts or 
something like Throwin': Bullets.
New Ones roll Ch'i.
They may or not use gear.  The Decapitation power (Flying Guillotine) calls 
for a $150 weapon that is obvious and very very difficult to get.  Other 
powers (like Flying Crescent) call for equipment also, as well as skills 
(Fighten': Flying Crescent or Throwin': Flying Guillotine)  These are, 
admittedly, the minority.

Note too you spend Chi for powers, and with the Old System, this chi 
requires fate chips to get back (new system MAs get it back with rest, but 
typically have less then half the Chi of the old styles and it comes back 
slower)


>Once you have the basic martial art, that's it; yours
>to use as you choose.  I have to assume that, at least
>with ch'i powers, rolls are required, but like any
>good gunslinger would ramp their skill, the martial
>artist could do the same.  After reading Goff's recent
>post about the new rule system converting martial arts
>to a single ch'i skill, this just makes it worse.

True.  Rolls are required for everything, power, maneuver, everything.


>Second, martial arts are only really designed to be
>countered by a fellow martial artist.  Two characters
>with martial arts makes for an interesting and
>strategic combat, as the maneuvers can often only be
>countered by other martial arts maneuvers.  You get a
>regular old brawler in there, I don't care how good
>her or she it, and they just can't compete.

In brawling, no. As a Back Belt and one who have seen some far better then 
me, this is very true to life.


>Keep in mind, this is completely ignoring any mystical
>systemic knowledge that being from a culture with a
>thousand year magical tradition includes; I would
>imagine that they, like the Indians, are knowledgeable
>and adept at dealing with spiritual forces at work in
>the Weird West.

kinda.  They are a bit "fish out of water" in the new world tho.  many do 
not understand westerners, and there is rampant racism on both sides.

>Granted, martial artists have some serious
>limitations.  They have practically no range ("Catch
>the Pearl of Death" or no), and at least as built in
>the original rules, no Dodge skill - one bullet is all
>it takes.  In addition, the tradition surrounding
>learning martial arts can severely limit their
>background and make it nearly impossible to learn new
>arts.

true.


>Here's my point, if you've suffered through this far:
>they seem unbalanced.  Systemically, they don't suffer
>the potential problems that other arcane background
>have to deal with (backlash, loss of faith, oaths to
>spirits / appeasement, ...), combined with a cheap
>start-up cost (one point of Edge).  Compare this to
>someone like Maggie who spent 8 Edge points to be good
>at what she does.  She may be good with a pair of
>pistols, but she can't vamoose to cost her opponent an
>action to get up, and she can't do non-chippable
>damage.

A MA requires, minimum:
a 3 and 2 point edge (new ones 3 and 3 point edge)
at least one in the Chi aptitude
at least one in Fighten': Martial Arts aptitude.  There are of course 
others that are related (Fighten': Flying Claw, Fighten': Flying Crescent, 
Fighten': Three section staff, Fighten': Sword, Throwin': Bullets, 
Throwin': Flying Guillotine)

High Vigor (for strain, new MAs only) High Nimbleness (for Fighten') High 
Spirit (for chi) and high Deftness (for Throwin', if they do that) oh, and 
High Strength if they really wanna do much damage.

Old system MAs have Harrowed like costs (10, x2 to raise) new have 5 point 
costs.

>Comments, disagreements and illustrations to the
>contrary gladly welcomed; I'm just confused at why the
>martial artists seem to stick out so much.

No problem.  I only want to help.


>Marguerite of EMGB, otherwise known as Maggie Jensen

TBS