Re: [BNW] Meta-Plot vs Static world

["Steve Crow" <crow_steve@hotmail.com>]

>--- Caias Brian Ward <talespinner@mindspring.com>
>wrote:
> > You can cover the 'basic premise' of the world
> > easily:
> >
> > BNW: low-powered supers in a Fascist America.
> >
> > There you go.
> >
> > The rest, you can ignore.  I know I do.  You can't
> > say Metaplot is bad.
>
>No one is saying Metaplot is bad.  I have no clue
>where you get this interpretation.
>

I missed some posts yesterday (Monday) from the weekend.  However, several 
people have implied (or outright stated) that the "Mysteries" of the BNW 
universe harm their ability to run their campaign.  And such mysteries are 
part-and-parcel of many Metaplots.

That may not be the correct interpretation of various folks' statements, but 
it would certainly seem to be where other people got the interpretation that 
some folks felt metaplot = bad.

> > Metaplot works well, as long as you cover the bases.
>
>And there's the key, the bases have not been covered.
>Crucial information about the nature of the world has
>been left out.  This leaves glaring holes that a ref
>cannot answer by himself, nor can he get an answer
>unless he emails Matt directly.  A good example just

And again, pardon me for missing it yesterday, but what glaring holes that 
need to be answered (i.e., "Crucial information").

The only one I have seen to date was Mr. Davis' from last week, concerning 
the (hypothetical, apparently) affect of a Nullifier field on a Gadgeteer.  
This is answered in Ravaged PLanet, and clarified in Allan's Accumulated 
Rulings.  I should know, since I asked for the clarification itself and it 
is listed in the AR Updates under my name...  ;)

>came up on the Deadlands list serve.  A curious
>Marshal asked if Soul Blast affects dynamite.  Several
>other Marshal's were able to respond with the SAME
>answer and were supported by PEG staff.  It was clear
>cut.  The universe works this way, ergo the same
>conclusion could be met.  If a question arose during a
>BNW game that a Guide could not answer, the game would
>have to be put on hold until Matt could answer.
>

We have had plenty of questions in Deadlands and HoE that "a Guide could not 
answer" and there are in fact _still_ gaps that keep us from running various 
stuff "officially."

The Soul Blast example is (roughly) comparative to asking, "Do Deltas with a 
Strength bonus get to add that bonus to all Strength rolls and Wounds?"  
Nobody here who actually reads the BNW rules has had trouble answering that 
question, either.

The Gadgeteer- and field-snuffer-related questions here that I've seen are 
more comparable to somebody picking up the basic Hell on Earth rulebook, and 
asking "How do I build a killer robot (or healing sarcophogus, or even make 
spook juice) with the vague Junker rules?"

> > That seems to be a different issue than calling it
> > all a 'marketing ploy'.
> >
>
>But it is a 'marketing ploy'.  Whether the information
>is released tomorrow or a year from now should not
>matter to Matt or anyone working on the BNW staff.  It
>does matter to people playing now.
>

Which aspect of the game do you feel you _absolutely_ need (i.e., crucial 
information) with which you can't run your campaign?

The only example I've seen (not yours) is concerning the "origin" of Delta 
powers.  I think "g.m." covered this adequately elsewhere.  Why are your 
(presumably) Defiance PCs even asking this?  And how are they, in-character, 
setting out to get this information.

The "mystery" in this case, IMO, is rougly comparable to that concerning the 
origins of Ghost Rock in the first year of Deadlands.  Nobody knew for sure, 
nobody had a way to find out, and folks (particular Mad Scientists) kept 
using it anyway...

>Now to rant a bit, this is all a moot point.  People
>who feel no more information than presently exists
>will not change their minds, nor will people who feel
>that something is lacking.  For those who feel the

True enough.  The problem seems to be, however, that the former don't 
understand _why_ the latter need this information that the latter feel are 
lacking.  As best I can tell, these GMs apparently have players who 
absolutely _have_ to know everything (even if their characters don't).  And 
that the lack of such explanations, up to a year after the game has been 
released, is therefore "something is lacking."

In this case, yes, BNW is obviously not a campaign for GMs with those kind 
of players who don't like "mysteries."  Nor does BNW present itself as a 
game for absolutely every taste.

>system is fine as is, I feel they are being overly
>optimistic comparing BNW's approach to other metaplot
>games that were successful.  In my opinion BNW does
>not resemble their approach as they gave enough
>information to play the basic game as is.  What BNW is

*shrug* I've provided plenty of examples of exactly how various aspects of 
BNW exactly resemble the approach other metaplot games have taken, including 
a new one or two above...

>doing more accurately resembles what other systems,
>like Sandman, tried to do.  What, you don't remember
>Sandman?  It had a great metaplot in which the players
>all had amnesia and awoke on an alien world.  What was
>going on was to be reveiled later.  Sadly I don't
>think the game lasted that long, nor really garnished
>the interest they hoped to develop, and faded into
>dust.
>

And if Deadlands had folded in the first year, no one would have known 
exactly what the heck was up with ghost rock, either.  No one would have 
known about the true nature of Creation in Torg if it had folded in the 
first six months.  None of this was revealed immediately either.

What your analogy with Sandman (yes, I had a copy - it was published by 
Pacesetter) fails to take into account was _why_ Sandman failed. You seem to 
be trying to draw a link between "metaplot mystery" = "failed game", without 
actually bothering to say _why_ Sandman folded, or why Torg and Deadlands 
held up.

Sandman failed, IMO, because it did not give you enough to run a "campaign." 
  It was basically a "pick your own path" adventure.  You weren't given 
enough info to run anything outside of the amnesia-plotline.

BNW (and Deadlands, and Torg, and Vampire) does give you enough to run a 
campaign.  I may not be a campaign where the players know the answer to the 
Deep Questions of Life (tm), but neither were those other games.

>I really hope this isn't BNW's fate, but it needs to
>develop a following so that it can continue supplying
>us with information.  If Guides don't feel there is
>enough information to play, they're not going to play.

Again, what information do you feel is lacking that inhibits your ability to 
run a campaign?  Alternately, why does not knowing the "origins" of Delta 
Powers make it impossible to run a campaign?

Obviously some people can and _have_ done it.  Given that, and all that has 
been said and done to date, it seems to be more a matter of expectations 
than anything

>  I know I have no interest in starting a campaign or
>buying more books until this crucial aspect is
>revealed.  Unfortunately if people don't play or buy
>books, then BNW might not even live long enough to
>reveil this secret.
>

The same could have been said of Deadlands, or Torg, or Vampire...  We keep 
coming back to why it is "crucial" for folks to know.

>The people who don't need to know the origins of Delta
>powers are already happy, and there might be enough of
>you to keep the game going.  I really hope so.  For
>me, I'll just wait, and someday when this missing
>information is released I might run it.
>

Which brings us back full circle to the whole "need to know" thing.  I 
didn't need to know how Ghost Rock worked to run Deadlands for the first 
year.  I don't need to know the final fate of Darius Hellstromme or the true 
nature of the Reckoners (or the mysterious "fifth Reckoner") to run Hell on 
Earth.  I didn't need to know the ultimately nature of the creation-entropy 
relationship (and how it tied in to the High Lords and Possibility Knights) 
in Torg to run campaigns there.  I didn't need to know the true nature of 
vampirism or exactly how diablerie worked to run Vampire.  Neither, 
apparently, did a great many other people.

Honestly, even in games where such mysteries _are_ explained, I very rarely 
need them.  Heck, when I ran BNW my players could have cared less about why 
they got their powers.

Obviously you and some others (or the players in their campaign) don't like 
the mystery/metaplot thing, and that's fine.  As far as I can tell, though 
(and nobody here has really said anything to contradict it), that doesn't 
seem to impact on the selling power of BNW one way or another.  If it is 
selling low, there seem to be enough other reasons to account for that.

>-Munch Wolf


---

Steve Crow

"Worm Can Opener Extraordinare"

Check out my website at:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/

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