Re: [BNW] white House Snuffer Fields

["Steve Crow" <crow_steve@hotmail.com>]

>For your comments: I am knee-jerk on the Meta-plot thing.
>

Knee-jerk good or knee-jerk bad? ;)

>I always thought Vampire sucked for mentioning things in a way that was
>obviously 'important' and providing no supporting information.
>

Such as...? Most of the things I recall as important it did eventually get 
around to supporting...eventually.  Way, way eventually.  And they may have 
introduced some new unexplained stuff.  I thought all the old stuff was 
pretty well "explained" by now, or even several years ago.

[various snippage on Deadlands]

>I won't ever play a game that is not supported. One book and out, and I
>won't even buy it. This game was obviously going to be well supported with
>supplements. However, I find myself stuck with making house rules that 
>could
>negate any future support besides my own little mind. In effect CREATING a
>one shot and out, no support game.
>

Couldn't tell here if you were referring to Deadlands/Huckster (from the 
previous paragraph), or moved on to BNW.

Again, the process you describe is typical of most meta-plot games.  It 
happened with Torg (see my previous example), it happened with Deadlands 
(and is still happening), it's happening with BNW.  Why would you _not_ be 
stuck making house rules until the later "official" supplement comes out?  
That's the essence of these types of games.  Sounds like you handled it 
pretty well for Hucksters.

>Why can Gadgeteers only maintain one gadget per day? No #$%$##ing clue.
>cause the rules say so. I think it's a cheap game balance point. And I have
>house-ruled it out. I will maintain game balance, by deciding what I allow
>my gadgeteers to maintain. However, it JUST might have to do with the
>METAPLOT and how deltas are powered. And if so, I just shot my support in
>the head.
>

That's your decision to make, in BNW or any other RPG.  I have my own 
thoughts on the matter wherein the whole "one gadget" thing makes perfect 
sense to me vis a vis Delta Powers.  But it doesn't sound like you want an 
explanation that will give you an out:  it sounds like you simply aren't 
happy with the background as you perceive it and don't _want_ an 
explanation.

Again, that's a valid point.  And clearly, if a game has enough systems that 
you don't agree with, it's a bad buy for you.  I don't think those systems 
were "buried" (as you imply with your pearl harbor comment below), however.

But there's a difference between saying you don't agree with what is 
presented in those systems, and saying those systems are bad or flawed.

>It is ABUNDANTLY obvious that ALL delta powers have a 'unified' source. 
>Else
>how could ONE device supress ALL superhuman abilities? Well, gee. I don't
>$%&%($#ing know. IT JUST WORKS THAT WAY. No explanation given.
>

Nor is any explanation needed.  As far as I can recall with most comic book 
negator-types, or RPGs, the "negate-type" power is universal.  Champions 
doesn't distinguish.  Various power nullifiers over at DC or Marvel don't 
distinguish.  Well, you can make distinctions (typically, taking some kind 
of Disad in Champions terminology), but most other RPGs start with the 
assumption negation negates everything, and then breaks it down for flavor.

So I would agree, yes, it is abundantly clear the powers come from one 
source in BNW.  And that source, as yet, has not been explained.  Ummm, 
so...?

>In short not KNOWING the base source of delta power increases the incidence
>of error for me in deciding how to house-rule GAME MECHANICS because I have
>no clue as to their underlying principle. AND I $%##$ing well KNOW there is
>an underlying principle that they just aren't sharing with me.
>

Sure.  That's why it's called a "mystery."

But again, what game mechanic do you need to house-rule on?  And do you 
_want_ someone else's input/point-of-view?  You seem to have already made up 
your mind that what you're seeing isn't explainable in your personal 
world-view of BNW.  Fair enough, but it makes both complaining about it 
publicly or asking for help (as Ewan seems to feel you are doing) a rather 
pointless endeavor.

I can see the Bargainer and Gadgeteer potentially causing problems (which is 
why they're getting separate sourcebooks - see below).  But otherwise...give 
some specifics.

Considering that BNW uses about the simplest superhero/power mechanics 
available (bonuses to skills, or the equivalent of carrying a gun or other 
piece of equipment in about 90% of the current cases), it strikes me that 
needing to know the deliberately-mysterious "source" of Delta powers is 
about the most unnecessary thing possible.  What with, say, the Snuffer 
power is causing you such difficulties that knowing where delta powers 
originate from is going to provide you with an answer consistent with what 
is eventually revealed?

>Now, I wouldn't be this vehement if I didn't like the game/mechanics/world.
>I paid bucks (comparatively) for what is an INCOMPLETE item. and a
>purposefully incomplete item. They PLANNED to leave out such basic
>information and will "release it" as it becomes pertinant to the 
>'metaplot'.

That, and because it's a "mystery," yes.  It's not billed on the cover as 
such, but there is clearly various stuff throughout the basic rules that 
says in essence, "Yes, this is a mystery - yes, you're not going to get all 
the answers."

The error here, if error it is, is that Matt seems to think you don't need 
to know this answer to play the game, run powers, etc.  In short, along with 
his whole "emphasize the character, not the power approach," he did indeed 
feel that it wasn't "basic information" that Guides need to know to handle 
power packages.

This may or may not be a valid approach...but I'm still confused as to what 
it is you feel you need to know to maintain consistency with the eventual 
answer for the mystery.  Or, alternately, are you saying that no one should 
even bother with this type of "mystery" approach?

As I noted in my earlier post, it seems that you need to mention specifics 
here.  Is it literally impossible for you to run a PC Shooter because you 
don't know what the origins of delta powers are?  A Gadgeteer (until the 
Gadgeteer SB comes out)?  A Snuffer?  Or what?

Without more detail, and with the understanding that there will be SBs 
coming out shortly, and this is typical for most RPGs, I don't have a 
problem with the interaction of these various powers.  If you do, I'd need 
more detail...

>And yes that torks me off. The reason, I personally, buy "commercial" 
>gaming
>products is because I expect to get support for my future gaming. (yes I
>expect to pay for it) I don't expect to have to wing it after the basic
>books, or do major altering to any supplement because I am forced to guess 
>a
>basic game concept. Like I said, I just won't buy a game like that.
>Unfortunately, I got "Pearl Harbored" on this one. And I love the game
>enough to where I am attempting to stick it out. SO, instead of saying
>"boo-hoo" make a house rule and deal with the Meta-plot torpedos... WHY
>DON'T THEY JUST TELL US WHAT THE SOURCE OF THE POWERS IS?

Because that's part of the mystery.

But I'm unclear why you feel you got "pearl harbored" here.  Clearly there 
is a mystery going on as the material in the basic rule book is presented.  
Why is this a surprise?

Do I feel Matt potentially jumped the gun by including Bargainers and 
Gadgeteers?  Maybe (as I've noted before).  So don't include them as PCs 
yet.  Many folks have said that here.  Use them simply as Guide devices 
until the appropriate sourcebooks come out.  If they're more powerful than 
they eventually turn out to be...*shrug* big deal.  Just say they were rogue 
Alphas or near-alpha level characters (is a definite "this far and no 
further" line between Deltas and Alphas required? I don't think so...) and 
move on.  Or say they have a unique package that no one else has seen.

Even if you do include these packages (or feel you have to include them 
because of player demand), so what?  Bargainer and Gadgeteer are presented 
at the very basic level in the rulebook.  Later, as the sourcebooks come 
out, the range of options for those Deltas will expand, representative of a 
character gaining more experience in his chosen field.

The only other issue here seems to be Snuffers.  Fine, we're all agreed they 
can negate any _use_ of powers, as said powers come from a single source, 
etc.  Matt is already on record as saying Snuff won't work on a Gadgeteer's 
(or someone else's) use of his equipment.  Although it will presumably stop 
his ability to maintain them, which shouldn't be relevant anyway.

The angst seems to be over how much folks can bend and/or break the power 
packages.  Matt Forbeck's approach was to deemphasize that kind of thing, 
and keep the powers for the most part simple.  I don't think he's "pearl 
harboring" anyone with that little factoid either.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the focus of this particular thread (and mostly 
a hypothetical one at that, since no one has yet to mention any specific 
"This is what one of my player characters brought up - what do I do?" info) 
seems to be, "Oh, what will the government and/or the players come up with 
in the way of sneaky intricate uses and cross-uses and cross-cross-uses of 
their powers, and how will I deal with it without knowing the one true 
origin of these powers??"

*shrug* That strikes me as worrying about the absolute wrong thing, and Matt 
says as much.  But...hey if you give some specifics, AND you're willing to 
accept an alternate viewpoint without dismissing it as, "Oh, that's 
convenient" or "I don't think of things that way," and you really want a 
solution, give some specifics (not hypotheticals), and I think you'll find 
folks here glad to help.

---

Steve Crow

"Worm Can Opener Extraordinare"

Check out my website at:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/

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