Re: [BNW] New game for me

["Steve Crow" <crow_steve@hotmail.com>]

>From: Steve Crow <crow_steve@hotmail.com>
>
> > As was stated in the basic rules, you can come up with any package you
>want
> > to.
>
>Ahhh, the old "the rules say you can make up anything you want" line. We
>don't need an expensive rule book to tell us that. But look at it from the

That is, of course, not all that the rulebook tells you, even pursuant to 
the "rules."  It is also not what they say at all.  They never say you can 
make up _anything_ you want to.

Superpower-wise, the rulebook gives you some examples of powers at the 
_specific_ power level (Deltas) indicated, rather than a point-based design 
system.  I'm certainly not going to argue that they're "balanced" (and 
indeed, I've argued that they aren't on several occasions ;) ).

On the other hand, define "balance."  Are Batman and Superman "balanced"?

>other side of the argument, whilst everything you feel you need cannot be
>place in one book (or even a set of books), your paying some else to fill
>out
>the details of the background, thus allowing you to weave stories of daring
>do placed in that background. If you do not like an aspect of that
>background you are free to try and alter that aspect whilst maintaining the
>rest of the stuff you do like, but the detail you paid for is there.
>
> > Ummm, so what?  Again there is no rule that states there absolutely must
>be
> > one type of Phaser, and no more, and it must be Matt's.
>
>But one will be better than the other, and the balance of power will be
>shifted. Unless they are vastly different in style, and they probably won't
>be since they're meant to be the same thing, the players will gravitate to
>the more powerful of the two and squeeze out the weaker to be relegated to 
>a
>NPC only character type.

Why will one be "better" than the other?  And even if that is the case...so 
what?  So you don't get full value out of those 2-1/2 pages you paid for the 
Phaser section of the Defiant sourcebook (although the suggestion above is 
to use them as NPCs, so you are getting some value).

>     And if you keep the weaker and disallow the stronger, then the players
>will complain that "you had it wrong/you had it right the first time", the
>more powerful one was more in style with the came and that was the worst
>call ever...blah be blah be blah. Alternately, the BNW supplements that
>mention these
>new character types can give you a template for them when they start
>throwing them around and everyone will be happy from the start.
>

Do you really have players that do this, or are we talking hypotheticals 
here?

I'm certainly not going to say there are no such players of that kind.  
However, if they're the kind who argue with you over these kinds of things, 
I suspect you have more problems with them than simply a Guide-created 
template not "balancing" against a supplement-created one...  ;)

> > >My complaint isn't that it isn't a meta-character
> > >creation system, it's that it is a package system with far too few, and
>too
> > >expensive (in dollars and cents) packages available.
> >
> > There are an _infinite_ number of power options in BNW.  They just 
>aren't
> > defined (as you kinda note), although Matt will occasionally print some 
>of
> > his own.  Those are no better or worse than those you or me the Guide
>might
> > come out with.
>
>I've moved that bit about, because I think it's relevant to this bit.
>

Fair enough.  The problem here is that you're letting the players determine 
that Matt Forbeck is an absolute authority and that you-the-Guide are not 
when it comes to building power packages.  There are certainly some writers 
and creators who have this attitude, but it strikes me as something Matt 
takes great pains not to do.

And like I said above, if players are really pulling this kind of stuff on 
you, you've got bigger problems, I suspect...

> > >Your own mileage clearly varies, but that's the soul of debate.
> >
> > To me, it seems to come down to this.  You seem concerned that there can
>be
> > only One True Version of any given power, and you are afraid that your
> > version of Phaser or Bomber or whatever will be at odds at that.  Or 
>that
> > you must spend money to keep up with these One True Versions.
> >
> > You seem to be viewing the packages as "must-haves" in some manner - a
> > mandatory part of character creation.  And that since they're spread out
> > over...well, probably every BNW book that ever has been or ever will be
> > published, it's incredibly expensive to get the "complete"
> > character-creation rules.
>
>     You keep on coming back to infinite template types, only limited by 
>your
>imagination, etc, etc. Whilst this is all true the point is you can get 
>good
>systems for free that allow you to make your own infinite variety
>super-heroes/street-avengers/normal people stuck in film-noir. Your paying
>for stuff like the templates, so when you don't get very many your not
>getting very much for your money.
>

But the templates make up a very small part of what you're paying for.  
Which...is kinda Matt's point.  Heck, he says to use those point-based 
systems, and that you're paying mostly for background (see the Author's 
Notes section of the Defiant Sourcebook).

(Ummm, just as a note, "film-noir" is not particularly relevant to the BNW 
universe as I understand the term.  Femme fatales, dark rainy streets...)

> > Nor is there a convenient (or not so convenient) point system with which
>to
> > design them.
>
>     Whilst a point system is always useful for constructing
>templates/vehicles/gears/whatever you always have to remember that they
>don't quite work properly. You always seem to be able to make something
>which is interesting, but very weak for the points used, and something
>probably quite boring but incredibly hard for the same points. Thus you
>always have to alter the cost based on your experience and judgement rather
>than blindly following the rules.
>

I'm sorry is the paragraph above yours?  If so...I would agree entirely.  
Most point systems are flawed or yield "unbalanced" results in some manner 
or another (and never midning that "balance" is purely subjective anyway).  
So...ummm, why should Matt Forbeck have bothered including another 
inevitably doomed-to-be-flawed point system?

> > But...the "official" packages are not required.  There is no rule or 
>word
> > from Matt or anything else that says that.  I guess I don't understand 
>the
> > reasoning behind why you feel you must buy the Defiants SB to have the
> > definitive Phaser package.  That's what your arguement seems to be 
>boiling
> > down to...
>
>     Who is this Matt person anyway? A game designer on BNW? The only
>role-play authors who stick out in my mind are Mark Ryan-dot-Hargan and 
>Gary
>Gygx. And that's only because I can't figure out whether Mark's dot is 
>meant
>to be a dash or what, and for some reason people think any thing with 
>Gygx's
>name one must be the best role-play game ever.
>

What a strange comment.  Ummm, if folks aren't happy with the BNW books, 
then at least they should be familiar with the single person who is writing 
them and is taking the full and sole responsibility for their contents.

Matt is, of course, Matt Forbeck.  If you look not-so-carefully at the cover 
of the main book folks kept citing, you'll see "by Matt Forbeck" at the 
bottom.  Granted, he's not as famous as Mark over at Storyteller, but still 
it's pretty hard to read the BNW books and yet somehow miss his name.

*shrug* I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.  Granted, he's not 
the most famous guy in the market, but if you have truly no clue who he is 
and you're reading his books and are subscribed to this mailing list, I can 
only assume you're equally unfamiliar with a lot of the other contents of 
the BNW books.

>     Malcolm.


---

Steve Crow

"Worm Can Opener Extraordinare"

Check out my website at:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/

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